Visigothic identity of Spain

[Wolfgang Franz]

Hails.

What is written here about Arianism is wrong. The Arians saw Jesus Christ as 
the son of God, God by himself. Created before the creation through him the 
whole creation is created. Nicaia and Constantinople found that Christ is not 
created but procreated as creation can not save itself. For Nikaia God Son 
and God Father are of "equal substance", for Arius of "similiar substance". 
What you write about Nicaia and Constantinople is in fact more or less the 
Arian way of thinking.  

Wulfila was in the middle between Nicaia and Arius. In fact he was Arian 
simply because this was the dominant creed in the time of his consecration. 
In fact the difference between Nicaia and Arius is so small that only in the 
east people cared about it, it is a greek philosophical dispute. The Goths as 
the Romans did not care so much for it.

Jesus Christ was never a prophet. Contrary to Mohammed who talked about the 
object of adoration Christ is the object of adoration. This he can only be as 
god.

Mohammed was influenced by monophysites, something totally different to 
Arianism.

Gawairthi,

Wolfgang


Am Freitag, 20. Oktober 2006 13:52 schrieb Ingemar Nordgren:
>  Hi Tom!
>
> You wrote:
> > Actually, the Arian creed saw Jesus as a human and a Prophet, born
>
> of the
>
> > Virgin Mary and ascended into heaven after the resurection rather
>
> than as
>
> > a part of the Godhead; the view of Jesus in Islam is almost identical
> > (some scholars think Muhammad may have been influenced by Arian-like
> > Christians in Arabia)
> >
> > Tom MacMaster
>
> I totally agree with you about the Arian original thinking. This is in
> the time of Arius and soon afterwards, but still this is the basic
> concept. The compromises in Nicea and Constantinople however explained
> that Christ was the first created entity and had existed before
> makind. Still he was regarded however as different from the Father.
> Since we now call him Christ and not Jesus there lies the implication
> that he was rather an incarnation of God  instead of actually
> resurrected/reborn and so he returns to the basic condition as divined
> righteous prophet. This does indeed lie close to Islam, and an Arian
> might quite easily convert during such circumstances as in Spain. The
> fact that Reccared and some leading nobles accepted Catholicism from
> 586 gradually and that the Catholic Toledo councils were raving lakeys
> of the pope in persecution of Jews, resulting in the final defeat in
> 711, does not mean the general population of Goths had lost their
> Arian roots even in 711. Hence it is not at all improbable that many
> Goths converted into Islam then.
>
> Best
> Ingemar
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>


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