Visigothic identity of Spain

[ualarauans]

Hailai jut, Iggwimer jah Mikael!

An interesting observation can be made that in Europe, there were two 
main areas of the Manichaean activity – in the Balkans (Bulgarian 
Bogomils, Bosnian Babuns) and in South France (Cathars). During the 
Migration period both areas were territories of compact settlements of 
the Arian Goths. It would be tempting to assert a genetic link and 
speculate of a Gothic origin of the later heretical communities. 
Still, AFAIK there's no direct or indirect evidence of
a) that the Goths, or some part of them, did ever confess a Manichaean 
doctrine;
b) that the Gothic Arianism contained elements of a dualist world view;
c) that the later Bogomils and Cathars were keeping any vestiges of 
their supposedly Gothic descent.

Sources of the Balkan and, as a consequence of its missionary 
activity, of the South French Manichaeism are usually found in 
Armenian Paulicians, resettled by Byzantine authorities from Asia 
Minor to Macedonia. The coming Slavs must have been a propitious soil 
for a Manichaean propaganda, since Slavic pre-Christian cosmologic 
ideas were strongly dualist (Bialybog "White God" vs. Czarnybog "Black 
God"). Can we find anything similar in the Germanic mythology, I 
wonder?

I, too, read about a Septimanian heretic kingdom. As I remember, it 
was called Jewish by some contemporary authors, with its king being of 
the Davidian stock. Maybe it was regarded so because it was tolerant 
to the Jewish community, unlike the common climate of periodic 
persecutions and expulsions outside?

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar at ...>
wrote:
> 
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "michelsauvant" <michelsauvant at ...>
> wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> >
> > I red also that some cathars were refugied among the Bosnian,
> > because they were prosecuted in South of France (13th century).
> >
> > I red also that catharism in South of France started from a
> > religious group living in Bulgaria around the 10th century.
> >
> > I red also that the last parts of Visigothic kingdom still arian
> > during the 7th, 8 th century was the Septimanie and the country
> > around Barcelona. Even during muslim reign they was an arian
> > visigothic king in Septimania.
> > And the lords living there where often battle against the catholic
> > power in Toledo. N.B. The Catalans, since that time, followed these
> > tradition until now against Madrid, even if the religion is not the
> > cause of their opposition since centuries.
> >
> > The heart of cathar country ( where the cathar castles are stil
> > there) is geographicly a part of the Visigothic Septimania.
> >
> > During the 9th century, the emperor Carolus Magnus forced people
> > living there to become catholics. I assume that a part of them
> > became cathars because of the arian tradition to be opposed to Roma
> > (of course they were heretics for Roma).
> >
> > My conclusion is the likely continuity between arian Visigothics,
> > and some bosnians Ancestors through cathar people, with a common
> > opposition to Roma.
> >
> > Michel
> 
> Salut Michel!
> 
> Je suis très heureuse pour le verification de ma hypothèse!
> I have all the time connected the  later Cathars and Albingenses with
> an inbreed from former Arians. Specially the tolerance included is
> mutual for them and Germanic Arianism.And, as you say, they were then
> used to be regarded as heretics. I however did not know there was an
> Arian king in Septimania that late, but it indeed explains a lot. It
> also gives a new light on the debated Agots/Cagots which I have 
indeed
> suspected to be Arian outcasts after the formal conversion of the
> Visigothic realm into Catholicism. Your information strengthens this
> hypothesis.
> 
> Salutations cordiales!
> Ingemar

Ualarauans




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