Visigothic identity of Spain

[Amer Sulejmanagic]

Just a few remarks on discussion

It is possible that some Arians gladly accepted Islam, but Muslim did 
not have some special relations with Arianism particularly. According 
to Shahristani all Christian sects can be divided in:
1. Orthodox Trinitary Faith (Melkitism, Nestorianism, Yakobism)
2. Unorthodox Trinitary Faith (Macedonianism, Sabelism, Arianism)
In fact Muslims were not interested in Christian heretical divisions.

The northern border of Islam in Spain? There is a possibility that 
north of Spain was not completely Christian. Basques that defeated 
Charlemagne in Ronseval Pass most probably were Islamized.

Contacts of Manicheism and Arianism in the Balkans. There are clear 
evidences that in 5th and 6th century Manicheistic church existed in 
Bistua Nova (Roman Municipium) near today's Zenica in Central Bosnia. 
Northeast from there were three Illyric Arian centres: Sirmium 
(Sremska Mitrovica), Mursa (Osijek) and Singidunum (Belgrade); and 
Southwest from Zenica was one Arina centre: Salona (near Split). When 
Slavs came to Balkans most of Romanized population fled to Bosnian 
mountains and to Adriatic islands. There is great possibility that 
Slavs in Bosnia were not Christianized in great number in 9th 
century, and that Manicheism of late antiquity survived till the 
Cathar movement.

Best regards,
Amer




--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore at ...> wrote:
>
> I presume you have read Obolenskys book
> 
> http://www.stavgard.com/medeltid/bogomils_/default.htm
> 
> Tore
> 
> On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:57 AM, macmaster at ... wrote:
> 
> > Are there any contemporary sources that discuss these 
Septimanian  
> > Arians?
> > Also, didn't the Bosnian Bogomils give rise to the Cathars 
(hence  
> > their
> > 'nicname' of Bulgar & the root of English "bugger"!) while those 
were
> > rooted in groups from eastern Anatolia?
> > I'm not sure one can trace a Gothic element in the Albigensians/ 
> > Cathars
> > any more than one can in Huguenots or Jansenists!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom MacMaster
> >
> > Ingemar Nordgren wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "michelsauvant" 
<michelsauvant@>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hello,
> > >>
> > >> I red also that some cathars were refugied among the Bosnian,
> > >> because they were prosecuted in South of France (13th century).
> > >>
> > >> I red also that catharism in South of France started from a
> > >> religious group living in Bulgaria around the 10th century.
> > >>
> > >> I red also that the last parts of Visigothic kingdom still 
arian
> > >> during the 7th, 8 th century was the Septimanie and the country
> > >> around Barcelona. Even during muslim reign they was an arian
> > >> visigothic king in Septimania.
> > >> And the lords living there where often battle against the 
catholic
> > >> power in Toledo. N.B. The Catalans, since that time, followed 
these
> > >> tradition until now against Madrid, even if the religion is 
not the
> > >> cause of their opposition since centuries.
> > >>
> > >> The heart of cathar country ( where the cathar castles are stil
> > >> there) is geographicly a part of the Visigothic Septimania.
> > >>
> > >> During the 9th century, the emperor Carolus Magnus forced 
people
> > >> living there to become catholics. I assume that a part of them
> > >> became cathars because of the arian tradition to be opposed to 
Roma
> > >> (of course they were heretics for Roma).
> > >>
> > >> My conclusion is the likely continuity between arian 
Visigothics,
> > >> and some bosnians Ancestors through cathar people, with a 
common
> > >> opposition to Roma.
> > >>
> > >> Michel
> > >
> > > Salut Michel!
> > >
> > > Je suis très heureuse pour le verification de ma  
> > hypothèse!
> > > I have all the time connected the later Cathars and Albingenses 
with
> > > an inbreed from former Arians. Specially the tolerance included 
is
> > > mutual for them and Germanic Arianism.And, as you say, they 
were  
> > then
> > > used to be regarded as heretics. I however did not know there 
was an
> > > Arian king in Septimania that late, but it indeed explains a 
lot. It
> > > also gives a new light on the debated Agots/Cagots which I 
have  
> > indeed
> > > suspected to be Arian outcasts after the formal conversion of 
the
> > > Visigothic realm into Catholicism. Your information strengthens 
this
> > > hypothesis.
> > >
> > > Salutations cordiales!
> > > Ingemar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






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