Toledo

[macmaster at RISEUP.NET]

How long did it take Norse to die out among the Normans?
Certainly less than a century (from 911 settlement to no later than the
first quarter of the eleventh).  However, the Normans continued to have a
consciousness as a people of Scandinavian descent for at least two
centuries after that.
I'd suspect a similar process amongst the Gothic rulers of Spain & Italy.

TM

OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
>

> --- faltin2001 <d.faltin at hispeed.ch> wrote:
>
>
>> it should stand as unclear dirk....when the goths
> invaded spain it contends that they drove out other enemys there which
> included the roman legions there and others, etc....oscar
>> Hi Oscar,
>>
>>
>> are the many question marks an expression of disbelief or a sign that you
>> are unclear about the content of my comment?
>>
>> Just to clarify, there is really no doubt today that
>> the Visigoths who settled in Spain after 507 didn't speak Gothic, but
>> Latin or
>> better a Latin military pidgin that included Germanic terms. The fact
>> that all royal documents issued by Visigothic kings are in Latin shouldn't
>> surprise. The same is true for Italy. Yet, even in private and Arian
>> church documents there is no use and not even a reference to an other
>> language, let alone Gothic. In Italy at least some private and clerical
>> documents use Gothic, albeit in a static, archic and formulaic way that
>> shows that the language was more or less dead already in daily use.
>>
>> Also, like in Italy, Visigothic kings never seem to
>> have need for interpreters. They can speak freely communicated with the
>> natives, which would at least require them to have been bilingual.
>> Finally,
>> the Frankish Tabula Gentes of 550 AD suggests directly that the Visigoths
>> of Spain were Latin-speakers.
>>
>> I suppose the federate army under Wallia who entered
>> Spain in the
>> early 5th century would have been mostly Gothic/Germanic speaking.
>> Yet, in the subsequent 3 or 4 generations in Gaul
>> Gothic was no doubt
>> abandoned in favour of Latin. When the Gothic kingdom was destroyed by the
>> Franks in 507, the remaining refugees who
>> fled to Spain would have ben Latin/Romanic speakers. And again, the
>> documentary evidence of the subsequent decades allows for no other
>> conclusion.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dirk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA
>> <duke.co at ...> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> ????????????
>>>
>>>
>>> faltin2001 <d.faltin at ...> wrote:          --- In
>> gothic- l at yahoogroups.com, "Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard"
>>> <manielombard@> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps I've used an unsuitable font, so here a
>>>>
>> repost:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Could Tulaytula, the Arabic form of Toledo, have
>>>>
>>
>>>> been derived from *Tôlêtula", a Gothic
>> hypocorism of *Tôlêtô < Latin
>>
>>>> Tôlêtum? Perhaps *Taúlêtô should be regarded as
>>>>
>> the Gothic etymon
>>>> (long unstressed "ô" having merged in Vulgar
>>>>
>> Latin with
>> short /o/,
>>> and
>>>> seeing that Arabic uses a short "u" preceded by
>> an emphatic t, in
>>>> order to reproduce an "o"; long "ê" is given as
>> "ay" [= "ê" in
>> spoken
>>>> Arabic]), which would give *Taúlêtula.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think so, because the Goths in Spain
>>>
>> didn't speak Gothic, but
>>> Latin or some vulgar Latin with a few
>>>
>> Germanic/Gothic remnants. The
>>
>>> Tabula gentes of about 550AD suggests so, and
>>>
>> there is no hint that
>>> they had any difficulties communicating with the
>> local population in
>>> Romanic without interpretors.There is also no
>>>
>> indication that written
>>> Gothic was used in Gaul or Spain. After all, the
>>>
>> Goths in Gaul and
>>
>>> Spain were a Roman federate army, which also
>>>
>> included many Roman
>>> provincials and Latin was no doubt the lingua
>> franca of the various
>>> western Gothic groups since the 5th century.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dirk
>>>
>>>
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