Reconstructing Gothic

Tue May 27 19:20:38 UTC 2014

OHG and Old English are well researched and all over the etymological dictionaries but what made many of us interested in Gothic in the first place, was our own language's surprisingly many cognates. I guess it is hard to find a word which was only preserved in OHG and Gothic. The Swedish Etymological Wordbook has this under "moder". I translate:

Gothic has instead ai𐌸ei = OHG eidî, cmp. runic Sw. ai𐌸u Kärnbo and Finnish loanword äiti (about which most recently Ojansuu Neuphil. Mitteil. 19:58)

(Can you see the thorn-signs in the above text, btw?)

It seems to me these issues are important for getting the project going:
1. Ensure the results of our work are properly mirrored, licensed and back-upped.
2. Find a balance between reference languages that is acceptable to all.
3. Limit the pace of work so that the few of us who know grammar will have time to correct the most painful errors before they gain broad usage.
4. Automate part of the decision-making process so the committee/mailing-list will not have to discuss everything but only the cases where someone disagrees with the computer.

If you are still around Roelingua, feel free to pick the nice parts of my ideas if there are any. :)

 RFC-gothic-l-2014-05-26: Point-based Gothic Reconstruction Adviser

1. A point-based evaluation is a complement to a manual approval process and a decision by a committee will take precedence over the verdict by this reconstruction adviser. Over the course of many decisions, the adviser will help a committee stay objective with regard to the balance of polation. It will also alleviate their work load so preliminary judgement will be passed automatically when members of the committee are occupied.
2. The reconstruction adviser should be implemented as a server-side application where many contributors can supply attestations and where software handles the evaluation.
3. The more points a lemma gets, the more likely it is Gothic. By using a threshold, sufficiently Gothic words may be singled out for inclusion in a lexicon.
4. We aim to recreate the Moeso-Gothic of year 350 Anno Domini.
5. Expressions from scriptures written in Wulfilan script and dated prior to 1000 AD are considered Gothic regardless of points.
6. Related languages are distributed in zones according to appendix A. This is so that geographical and historical connectedness will be accounted for.
7. Points get awarded according to:

P = SUM [x=1 to 7 of language zones](  SUM [y=1 to a of attestations sorted by age] ( A(y)^y))

where A(y) is the number of points awarded to an attestation according to:

A(y) = 1.000001^(-ABS(year_of_attest_AD - 350_AD)^2)

ABS() is the absolute value, so that it returns the time-distance in years from AD 350. A(y) will return a value just below 1 for attestations close to 350 AD and 0.368.. for attestations from year 1350 AD or 650 BC. A(y)^y will ensure that additional attests give points but fewer and fewer. "sorted by age" means, the ones closer to 350 AD will come earlier and have more weight. 
Points awarded one form of an expression should affect the other forms to the extent their connection has been established.

Appendix A

Zone 1. OLD INDOEUROPEAN
Sanskrit, Tocharian, Sogdian

Zone 2. SEMITIC & CLASSIC
Aramaic, Phoenician, Classical Latin, Homeric - Koine Greek

Zone 3. NORTH-WESTERN
Old Irish, Old English, Old West Norse (Icelandic, Norweigan, Faroese)

Zone 4. WEST GERMANIC
Frisian, Dutch, Low German

Zone 5. EAST-NORDIC & BALTIC
Gutnish, Scanian, Elfdalian, Samogitic, Old Swedish

Zone 6. OHG
Old High German

Zone 7. SLAVIC
OCS, Old Slovenian, Russian

Zone 8. OTHER
Finnish, Turkic, Illyrian, Celtic, later Greek & Latin

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 8:01 PM, "Johann Dröge anheropl0x at gmail.com [gothic-l]" <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Yet they don't. Our rather, didn't.
On May 27, 2014 1:14 AM, "OSCAR HERRE duke.co at sbcglobal.net [gothic-l]" <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>  
>just like father...they would say fadar.....
>
>
>
>On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 1:07 AM, "OSCAR HERRE duke.co at sbcglobal.net [gothic-l]" <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>
>
>  
>I think modar fer mother sounds right....
>
>
>
>On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 1:05 AM, "OSCAR HERRE duke.co at sbcglobal.net [gothic-l]" <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>
>
>  
>I haf reconstructed a few words to be....nail is nagla....ive reconstructed mail to magla......another is like....you are able or ept to do this....ju maganaida du tawei sah......side is seiden.....swe....so.....to hide...du heiden.....sindama alga waurdam....there are other words.....niu mag gamunna em......can not remember them......seinama wilja campt afta dumis....they will come back to me....god adaugai mith sah...awuilidon frijondam....
>
>
>
>On Monday, May 26, 2014 7:43 PM, "Edmund Fairfax edmundfairfax at yahoo.ca [gothic-l]" <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>
>
>  
>A few observations in connection with the last contributions:
>
>
>1) Gothic fadar is indeed extant only once (Gal.4,6):
>
>
> insandida guth ahman sunaus seinis in hairtona izwara hropjandan 'Abba! Fadar!'
>"God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying 'Abba! Father!' 
>
>
>It is used here to gloss the -- in the context of the Greek original -- exotic Aramaic word 'abba', which is perhaps an indication that the word fadar itself was perhaps felt to be exotic as well, either an archaic word or a borrowing from another Germanic dialect. Of course, the root fadr- is also found in the Gothic word fadreins, glossing Greek/Latin patria, but this could possibly be an instance of a "cranberry" morpheme in Gothic (cf. Mod. English were- in werewolf).
>
>
>2) Even with the knowledge of OHG eide, the cognates OE athum, OFris athom, OHG eidum 'son-in-law' complicate matters. According to Lehmann, aithei is a derivative, like the other forms given here, from Pre-Germanic *oit-, the source also of aiths 'oath'. Lehmann (1986: 20) suggests that aithei was originally "a Germanic word for woman given by legal process to a man; carries implication that children of aithei would inherit in contrast with those of concubine". Given the foregoing forms, reconstructing a Gothic aithei (were the noun not extant) would still be far from obvious.
>
>
>3) As to Icelandic language purism, there is an official governmental organization called the -- sorry no accents -- Islensk Malnefnd ('Icelandic Language Commission'), not to mention many professional societies which have their own language committees, that meet regularly to discuss proposed neologisms especially in the fields of science and technology. Modern Icelandic simi 'telephone', to give an example of their work, is simply an Old Norse word revived ('rope') with a new meaning. But these organizations, of course, are not attempting to reconstruct earlier forms of non-extant Norse lexical items and so have unlimited freedom in the invention of words. Alas! Something lacking in the English-speaking world, thanks to its fixation on the Graeco-Latin!
>
>
>Edmund
>
>
>
>On Monday, May 26, 2014 4:31:23 PM, "David Connolly dec.phd at sbcglobal.net [gothic-l]" <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>
>
>  
>Dirk and everybody,
>
>
>All of Edmund's points are well taken indeed.  The Gothic corpus that we have preserves 45 instances of 'aithei', including Nom., Acc., Dat., Gen. forms in the singular, and Acc. plural.  The number of occurrences of *modar is *zero*.  
>
>
>
>Our best bet for deciding which form "the Goths" would have used is to query Gothic as it is actually preserved (i.e., Wulfila's Bible).  Even if some Goths (some sub-dialects, some regions?) had a word like *modar, what we have attested is 'aithei'.  If we are so attracted to 'modar' due to its similarity to our modern cognates, then it seems that we are embarking on something other than recovering/reestablishing Gothic; rather, we are making up sort of a pan-Germanic lingo that might be fun but shouldn't be called Gothic.  (Similar sentiments apply to recent comments about 'wreitan' (sp?) for 'write' versus [attested] meljan.)
>
>
>
>It is interesting that there are a couple hundred (I believe) examples of 'atta' as father;  but in keeping perhaps with Dirk's suggestion, there is indeed *one* example of 'fadar' in Wulfila.  The Gothic word for father seems to have been 'atta', but with the lexical item of 'fadar' lurking in the recesses of at least some Goths' minds - ?
>
>
>
>I appreciated the point a few messages ago about the restoration/enhancement of Hebrew in the 20th century in Israel; it is true, an ancient language was revamped and modernized to become a major world vernacular.  But of course, the Hebrew example had a large worldwide population of (mostly) Jews, coming together as a group with a shared identity in a specific region (Palestine); in other words, all the makings for a major linguistic coup, combining a traditional holy tongue with modernity.  We Gothic fans, however, alas, are quite a ways from anything like that.  We are reveling in the fact that there are a few like-minded individuals out there at least in the world of the internet.  I am wondering how familiar any of y'all are with the process by which Modern Icelandic has dealt with new words (including technological, scientific, etc.)--I understand that they have a process of creating "natively" Icelandic versions of said new words. 
>
>
>
>Comments offered in all good fun and best wishes -
>David  
>
>
>
>From: "d.faltin at hispeed.ch [gothic-l]" <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com>
>To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Monday, May 26, 2014 3:48 PM
>Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Reconstructing Gothic
> 
>
>
>  
>Hi Edmund,
>
>
>your point regarding Gothic aithei (mother) is well taken and valid. However, just to add Old High German also preserved this form as "eide" meaning mother (in a certain legal context) and "fotar eidi" meaning nurse, i.e. woman nursing a child.
>The problem would have been to decide which form the Goths would have used. My guess is that they also had a world like *modar, but it was simply not recorded.
>
>
>Best
>Dirk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/gothic-l/attachments/20140527/163232a8/attachment.htm>