Summary: whales and dolphins vs. pigs and lambs

[Alexander Vovin]

Dear Martin (if I may) and all,

        Thank you for you comment and sorry for the belated reply --
while I am aware of the Ie etymology for Greek dolphis, -nos from PIE
*gwelbh-, you have sent on an interesting quest for recovering the
original Japonic word for 'womb', which took time, and so far failed:
all the names for 'womb' I could see so far are periphrastic
constructions like 'child's bag', apart from Chinese loans. Yet at
this point I would be hesitant to derive proto-Ryukyuan *peto
'dolphin' a la Greek, since neither Ryukyuan nor Japanese has any word
families that your mention or smthng like Greek adelphos.

Best wishes,

Sasha

============
Alexander Vovin
Visiting Professor, International Research Center for Japanese Studies, Kyoto &
Professor of East Asian Languages
University of Hawaii at Manoa

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Martin Huld <ylfenn at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>  If you are seeking a way to connect 'dolphin and swine, have you thought of the possibility that both are derived from a third and distinct meaning?  I am referring specifically to the Greek set δελφίς 'dolphin', δέλφαξ 'young pig, porker' according to Liddell & Scott, 'cochon de lait' in Boisacq, but 'Sau, Mutterschwein' according to Frisk, and δελφύς 'womb'.  The last, of course, is related to Av. gərəbuš 'womb' from a PIE *gwelbh-.  The porcine connexion with 'womb' is obvious; the farrow is recently emergent from the womb and the sow is a potent symbol of fertility in earlier cultures.  Though some suggest that the sleek curvature of the dolphin resembles a belly, I suspect that it is merely the 'fish with a womb' because though perfectly adapted to a marine environment, the dolphin is after all a mammal.  Is it possible that the Japanese and Ryukyuan both derive from a lost Proto-Japanese 'womb'?  In which case, taboo may explain why the meaning 'womb' has been lost.
>
>  MEH
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  >From: Alexander Vovin <sashavovin at gmail.com>
>  >Sent: Apr 28, 2008 1:56 AM
>  >To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
>  >Cc: Bjarke Frellesvig <bjarke.frellesvig at hertford.ox.ac.uk>
>  >Subject: [Histling-l] Summary: whales and dolphins vs. pigs and lambs
>  >
>  >Dear all,
>  >
>  >       Many thanks for everyone who responded to my query about
>  >pigs/lambs vs. whales/dolphins (in chronological order): Peter Hook,
>  >Chris Cleirigh, Roger Lass, John Charles Smith, Shigeru Tsuchida,
>  >Paolo Ramat, Ivan Iguartua, Christian Kay, Frank Seifert, Mair Parry,
>  >and Vit Bubenik.
>  >      If I may offer a summary,  It looks like that whales, dolphins,
>  >dugongs, porpoises etc. can be named 'pig of the sea', 'water pig,
>  >'pig fish'. 'sea-ox' and sea animal' also do occur, although much more
>  >rare. However, it seems that there are no direct semantic shifts like
>  >'pig'  > 'dolphin', or what is even more important to me 'lamb'  >
>  >'dolphin.'
>  >       For those, who might be interested, the original query was
>  >triggered by the following problem: after my recent talk at the Kyoto
>  >University, where I suggested that Proto-Ryukyuan *peto 'dolphin'
>  >(with seemingly no apparent attestations on the Japanese side of the
>  >Japonic family and as far as I am aware without any possible external
>  >parallels in surrounding language families) should be probably treated
>  >as Proto-Japonic word for 'dolphin' since Old Japanese (OJ) (etc.)
>  >iruka 'dolphin' is rather transparent loan from Ainu, my friend Bjarke
>  >Frellesvig suggested the possibility that *peto might be connected to
>  >OJ pi1tuzi 'lamb' (Modern Japanese hitsuji). Phonetically and
>  >morphologically it is plausible, because Proto-Japonic *e and *o
>  >raised to OJ i and u respectively in most cases, and because there are
>  >dialect data (Yaeyama phitsI, pitsi 'lamb') indicating that -zi is a
>  >suffix. However, semantics seemed somewhat suspicious (although 'pig
>  >of the sea' lurked in my mind), and this basically was confirmed by
>  >responses that included no references to lambs. There is an additional
>  >problem: Yaeyama forms indicate Proto-Ryukyuan *petu 'lamb', not
>  >*peto. So, the etymology is probably still possible, but,
>  >unfortunately for the possibility to strengthen the status of
>  >Proto-Ryukyuan *peto 'dolphin' at the Proto-Japonic level, it is not
>  >strong at all.
>  >     Thank you all again,
>  >
>  >Best wishes,
>  >
>  >Sasha
>  >
>  >
>  >============
>  >Alexander Vovin
>  >Visiting Professor, International Research Center for Japanese Studies, Kyoto &
>  >Professor of East Asian Languages
>  >University of Hawaii at Manoa
>  >
>  >
>  >On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Alexander Vovin <sashavovin at gmail.com> wrote:
>  >> Dear all,
>  >>
>  >>         Does anyone know about any possible semantic shifts between
>  >>  'doplhin' (or 'whale') to 'lamb' (or 'pig') or vice versa? A friend
>  >>  told me that he vaguely remembers that some language calls whales
>  >>  'pigs of the sea', but he could not recollect which one.
>  >>         I will be grateful for any information. Thank you,
>  >>
>  >>  Best wishes,
>  >>
>  >>  Sasha
>  >>
>  >>  --
>  >>  ============
>  >>  Alexander Vovin
>  >>  Visiting Professor, International Research Center for Japanese Studies, Kyoto &
>  >>  Professor of East Asian Languages
>  >>  University of Hawaii at Manoa
>  >>
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >--
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>  >https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>
>



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