Borrowed word order in phrases

Sun Dec 15 17:18:21 UTC 2013

But that paper in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition is written by people
who don't believe that change in frequency is change.  It's a very odd
belief, and it would rule out any change from a more restricted set of
environments to a "default" status -- for those authors such a change
wouldn't count as any kind of change, no matter how contact-induced it was.

  -- Sally Thomason

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:08 AM, George Walkden <george.walkden at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> In googling around on this interesting topic, I've come across a paper
> arguing that the prevalence of stranding in Canadian French is not due to
> contact - with several responses.
>
> <
> https://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayIssue?jid=BIL&volumeId=15&seriesId=0&issueId=02
> >
>
> Since it's in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition, which is perhaps not
> normally read by everyone on this list, I thought I'd bring it up. The
> issue covers many of the same questions that have been discussed here.
>
>  - George
>
>
> On 15 Dec 2013, at 16:17, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote:
>
> As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several
> years ago, let me clarify.
>
> We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France
> about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know
> her..) asked the waiter:
>
> Si je peux vous poser une question?
>
> The waiter replied:
>
> Je suis là pour.
>
> I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and
> Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around
> here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary
> French (français avancé as they like to say...)
>
> Geoff
>
> Geoffrey S. Nathan
> Faculty Liaison, C&IT
> and Professor, Linguistics Program
> http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/
> +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT)
>
> Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it
> to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From: *"Marie-Lucie Tarpent" <mltarpent at hotmail.com>
> *To: *hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br,
> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> *Sent: *Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases
>
> Paul Hopper:
>
> About Bauche's examples:
>
> (1) les femmes qu'il a couché avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that
> he slept with)
>
> This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a
> single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject.  The
> formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couché" is not only much
> more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar
> in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a
> calque of French).  An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a
> couché", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists,
> especially in writing.
>
> (2) je lui ai couru après 'I ran after him'
>
> Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French
> sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I
> (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an
> oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders).  For 'I
> ran after him/her',  "j'ai couru après lui/elle" would be less likely to be
> interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context.
>
> (3) tu n'as pas travaillé pour 'you didn't work for it'
>
> A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne
> ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier).  "T'as pas
> travaillé pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage
> of "pour".  Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in
> (1)):  so perhaps
> a) T'as pas travaillé pour ÇA.  ("ça" here is the topie). 'You didn't work
> for THAT'
> b) C'est pas ça que t'as travaillé pour.  'THAT is not what you worked
> for.'
> c) - ... ÇA...  - T'as pas travaillé pour.  (omitting the topic, which was
> mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT'
>
> The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (=
> uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more
> likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax.
>
> As for the next and most recent example:
>
> (4) j'y suis pour
>
> it sounds very strange to me,  Unlike the other examples, it is most
> likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here
> for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure.  (Or
> the opposite could be true).
>
> marie-lucie
>
> > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500
> > From: hopper at cmu.edu
> > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com
> > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br
> > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases
> >
> > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire.
> > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle
> > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris:
> Payot,
> > 1928.
> >
> > les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with”
> > je lui ai couru après “I ran after him”
> > tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it"
> >
> > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as
> > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for".
> >
> > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic
> > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hi Eduardo,
> > >
> > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where
> the
> > > writer is from]:
> > >
> > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t...
> > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors
> > > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine
> il
> > > y
> > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* !
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Peter Hook
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka <lachicadelgorro at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dear Eduardo,
> > >>
> > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé
> > >> nada")
> > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin
> > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here (
> > >>
> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_
> ).
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Hope it helps!
> > >>
> > >> Carlota
> > >>
> > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500
> > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com
> > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> ;
> > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting]
> > >> >
> > >> > Dear colleagues,
> > >> >
> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of)
> phrases
> > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more
> > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal
> > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the
> original
> > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc.
> > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88).
> > >> >
> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases
> > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes,
> > >> > ended up becoming the default usage?
> > >> >
> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this
> > >> topic.
> > >> >
> > >> > Obrigado,
> > >> >
> > >> > Eduardo
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista
> > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Histling-l mailing list
> > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >>
> > >>
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> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul J. Hopper,
> > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus,
> > Department of English,
> > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences,
> > Carnegie Mellon University,
> > Pittsburgh, PA 15213,
> >
> > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics,
> > University of Pittsburgh
> >
> > Senior External Fellow,
> > School of Linguistics and Literature,
> > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS),
> > Freiburg i.Br., Germany
> >
> > Publications: <http://carnegie-mellon.academia.edu/PaulHopper>
> > <http://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=n2e7ANUAAAAJ
> >
> >
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>
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