Indn Words for Science

[phil cash cash]

Hi Annie, i would highly recommend reading:

A. Oscar Kawagley.  1995.  A Yupiaq Worldview: A Pathway to Ecology and  
Spirit.  Waveland Press, Inc., Illinois.  [note: a Yupiaq science  
philosopher]

Gregory Cajete.  2000.  Native Science: Natural Laws of  
Interdependence.  Clear Light Publishers.  [note: a Tewa science  
philosopher]

i think both would claim that science is an integrated concept in  
indigenous philosophies and i think both would claim that indigenous  
science is "grounded" in the real world, akin to something like  
grounded theory elsewhere.  both writers are very nice people.

phil cash cash (cayuse/nez perce)
UofA, ILAT

On Mar 7, 2004, at 10:35 AM, annie ross wrote:

> hello
>  
> i too am interested in words, not as a linguist, but an a scholar of  
> oral histories, and as an artist and teacher interested in native  
> philosophy and place.
>  
> i wonder, would the mainstream concept of 'science' be  
> compartmentalized outside of the panoply of information in native  
> logic?  (would 'science'  be a separate category/subject word?)   
> or...perhaps, would there be a suffix or prefix or modifier to a word  
> that would mean something like 'understanding' in an indigenous  
> language ,  that would translate to what is meant by the western word  
> "science" ? 
>  what if the word mainstream culture uses, "shaman'" mean, in part,  
> "scientist'?  aren't our medine men and women, in part, true  
> scientists? and what of other indigenous occupations - those that  
> demand study, observation, analysis, knowledge of factual information  
> - are not those 'science', using an indigenous scientific method of  
> personal experience?
>  
> annie ross
>
> Mia - Main Red Pony <miakalish at REDPONY.US> wrote:
> Hi, Andre,
>
> This is a wonderful document for the Exploratoria that we will be  
> building
> if we get the big NSF grant we applied for.
>
> I wasn't asking for the words for use in teaching materials, though. I
> wanted them for a generalized approach that says, It's time to stop  
> looking
> at Indns as simple, superstitious creatures, because white people  
> screwed up
> to begin with by biasing their learning about the people here because  
> of
> J.W. Powell.
>
> I am taking a class in petroglyphs, and the ideas that the people  
> writing
> come up with are really, truly, offensive (at least to me, but being a
> Cognitive Psychologist, I am probably more sensitive to it than most
> people). On the one hand, we have David Lewis-Williams with his theory  
> that
> much of what has been created on rocks is "shamanistic in nature", a  
> theory
> he started to try to "understand " the rock paintings of the San  
> bushmen, and
> on the other Ron Eckland, who has aptly and admirably demonstrated that
> African patterns are based on fractal geometry. As you might well  
> imagine,
> David Lewis-Williams had only to make his theories up in his head, and
> search through the literature finding people who had written things  
> that
> agreed with his ideas. Eckland, on the other hand, had actually to  
> derive
> the equations, and run them through the computer to demonstrate that  
> the
> equations appropriately represented the structures.
>
> I think I have mentioned this before: I use technology to develop  
> effective
> teaching materials, but unlike most people, I target my goals at  
> adults. The
> things I have developed so far work well for children, but more
> significantly, they work well for adults, who people think can't learn
> languages. Now I am expanding a little, to take the simultaneous,
> multi-perceptual presentation form and apply it to more difficu lt  
> learning,
> like computer algorithms, for example. This is a course most people  
> fail; I
> think I can develop materials that teach enough, painlessly,  
> enjoyably, so
> most everyone does well. I say "most", because you can't guarantee that
> everyone will do the class work.
>
> This was kind of an aside: my goal here is really simple. It is to be  
> able
> to say, Powell was a vicious idiot, and the rest of us are living with  
> the
> results of that perniciousness.
>
> Kind of harsh, huh? There was a lake named after him when they dammed  
> the
> Colorado. Harrington, unarguably one of the best linguists and  
> ethnographers
> Ever, left us a clue in a 1907 publication that Powell was forcing all
> analysis of Native languages in the English structure and component
> framework. He could do that, because he was the gatekeeper at the
> Smithsonian.
>
> So thanks, Andre. I was going to say, I guess there are no words for
> scientific and mathematical concepts left in y our language, either.  
> However,
> I have one more perspective to share. The "tools" that a  
> non-destructive,
> hunter-gatherer society uses (and looks for) are different from the  
> tools a
> sedentary, ecologically destructive agricultural society uses (and  
> looks
> for) and both of these are extremely much different from the tools of  
> an
> industrial society. These different "ways of surviving" also contain
> different sets of questions asked and answered, cultural goals and
> expectations, and vocabularies in general.
>
> Hence my question: Did any Indn words survive the Powell Purge?
>
> Hope you are having a nice day. It is beautiful here in NM; a wonderful
> winter storm went through leaving us much needed rain and snow. I know  
> you
> don't have that problem up there in exquisitely beautiful northern
> California.
>
> best,
> mia
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andre Cramblit"
>  To:
>  Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Indn Words for Science
>
>
> FYI (attached)
>
> Mia - Main Red Pony wrote:
>
> > Hello.
> >
> > In the middle of these devastating assaults on Native languages, laws
> > that say classes must be taught in English, No [Rich] child left
> > behind. . . and so on, I have what I think is an important question  
> to
> > ask, especially for people working on revitalization.
> >
> > Do your languages have words for science?
> >
> > I have been looking through my dictionaries (Young and Morgan's
> > Colloquial Navajo, Perry's Western Apache Dictionary, Bray's version
> > of the Western Apache-English Dictionary, Toluwa and Hupa]. I have a
> > small set of really basic words: add, subtract, multiply, divide,
> > circle, square, triangle, measure, count, repeat, rhythm, angle,  
> line,
> > cloud, mountain, rain.
> >
> > Most of the languages have recorded words for circle, mountain , and
> > rain. Many have words for cloud, although Toluwa, in the Pacific
> > Northwest, and with words for fog, don't have one listed for "cloud".
> >
> > So, my really important question: Do Your Languages have these words?
> > Some?
> >
> > You don't have to send me what they are, unless you would enjoy
> > engaging with them. But I would like to know if they exist.
> >
> > I am convinced that Powell created a limited, and somewhat  
> pernicious,
> > view of the people who lived here originally with his prescriptive
> > Introduction to the Study of Indian Languages: Words, phrases and
> > sentences to be collected.
> >
> > I am also convinced that without this narrow and exclusive view,  
> some,
> > of not all, of the language issues that we have today, particularly
> > with regard to languages which may be used in schools for teaching,
> > would not exist.
> >
> > The question arose because I am loo king at geometric patterns at  
> Three
> > Rivers Petroglyphs. The patterns show up in pottery designs in
> > 1100-1300 ad. I wondered if people had conceptualized these forms
> > linguistically.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your help.
> >
> > Mia Kalish
> >
> > PS: Thanks for that information on grants, Andre. Wouldn't this be
> > just a Perfect Project!
> >
> > "Civilization advances by extending the number of important  
> operations
> > which we can perform without thinking about them. Alfred North  
> Whitehead
> >
> > Mia Kalish, M.A.
> > PhD Student, Computer Science
> > Tularosa, New Mexico USA 88352
> >
>
>
> --
>
>
> André Cramblit: andre.p.cramblit.86 at alum.dartmouth.org is the  
> Operations
> Director Northern California Indian Development Council NCIDC
> (http://www.ncidc.org) is a non-profit that meets the development needs
> of American Indians
>
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