Personal Pronouns

[Patrick C. Ryan]

[ moderator re-formatted ]

Dear Jens and IEists:

 ----- Original Message -----
From: Jens Elmegaard Rasmussen <jer at cphling.dk>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 11:09 AM

[ moderator snip ]

<snip>

> > And what change is that?
>
> The change in function. Quite often theories are rejected because they are
> "ad hoc", the assumption being that in principle anyone can explain
> anything if he is allowed to make the necessary extra assumptions. Still,
> the easiest ad hoc solution ought at least to be specified, so as to be
> evaluated on its own merits and to be kept in mind reconsideration in
> case additional evidence later emerges. But your theory is not "ad hoc", it
> is "ad aliud": it simply explains something different from what we find.
> To be of interest, such a theory must have something _very_ elegant and
> simplyfing about it, otherwise there is hardly a chance it could be true.

I believe, with Beekes, that IE was once an ergative language; and that the
absolutive form in IE was -0. I assume that the attested accusative *te
maintains the form of the absolute before the introduction of animate
accusatives in -m. In the datives *toi and *tebh(e)i, we see it retained
also. If *tu/u: were the underlying form, we should expect **twi and
*tubh(e)i generally (although this probably explains the Greek forms, e.g.
in s-.

Additionally, the Hittite enclitics -du and -ta clearly point to an early
competition between the basal forms (-ta from *te) and the expanded form
(-du from *twe).

If IE had a topical inflection in -w, it is precisely among the conservative
pronouns that we would expect it to manifest itself.

>>> You are disqualifying the evidence which points in a different
>>> direction than you want to go.

>> I am discounting an alternate interpretation of the evidence.

> That may be put down as a plea of guilty.

That may be characterized as a Star Court proceeding.

>>> And it is _very_ unsatisfactory to have the preform of *swe 'oneself,
>>> sich' be a nominative.

>> Well, perhaps it your view but not in Pokorny's, where we find *swe listed
>> under *se as *s(e)we, and "*se- und *s(e)we-, Reflexivpronomen fu{"}r alle
>> Personen, Gechlechter und Numeri".  *swe means simply 'self', and, as such,
>> is not case-dependent as compounds like *s(w)e-bh(o)- surely show (cf. also
>> Armenian <in-kn>).

> Pokorny also knew that sich, se, sego did not form a nominative. The lack
> of "Kasus" in the enumeration of the global function of the pronoun is
> eloquent. -

Do not confuse dependence with function. "I myself am going". Is "myself"
not a nominative depending on another nominative?

> That derivatives or compounds containing the reflexive stem
> can occur in all cases is a consequence of the complex meaning of the
> result and does not reflect a nominative case meaning of the reflexive
> itself.

I think you should read Pokorny's definition again: "urspru{"}nglich
'abseits, getrennt, fu{"}r sich', DANN Reflexivpronomen..."

> By the same logic, you might say that Lat. no:s 'we, us' could be the
> singular, just because there is a derivative noster that can be used in all
> the forms an adjective can have.

I hope I never succumb to such a logic.

 <snip>

>> Then, of course, you are wrong in view of Greek <no:{^}i>.

> I have never derived Gk. no:^i 'us two' from any IE or post-IE preform
> with *now(V)-. I have derived the acc. no:^e from *nH3we via
> Proto-Gk. *no:we, this equating the form with the IIr. stem /a:va(-)/.

My dictionary shows <no:{^}e> *only* as a poetic variant of <no:{^}i>. Do
you have different information?

I reject unequivocally your H{3} as a part of the reconstruction.

Pat

PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St.
Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 USA WEBPAGES:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803 and PROTO-RELIGION:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/indexR.html "Veit
ek, at ek hekk, vindga meipi, nftr allar nmu, geiri undapr . . . a ~eim
meipi er mangi veit hvers hann af rstum renn." (Havamal 138)