[Lexicog] stereotypes, taboos, and lexicography

Tue Feb 22 14:09:31 UTC 2005

Very good questions.  Thanks for stirring up the brain cells, 
Thapelo. 

Let's consider an example that could be controversial, and think 
what guidelines we might come up with. Thinking back to my 
childhood in the 1950s (again), the expression "nigger in the 
woodpile" (meaning an unexpected or hidden snag) was then 
quite common, and I believe that no one around me at that time
(my parents and their circle, living in middle-class southern 
England, not America) had any thought of black people or intention 
to be offensive when using it. I'm not denying that it IS offensive, 
just drawing attention to the unthinking was in which we used idioms. 
In fact, I can remember the sense of a penny dropping back in the 
sixties when someone pointed out that it is offensive. The expression 
is in Collins English Dictionary (1979) but we left it out of the New 
Oxford Dict. in 1998. Why?

We felt justified in ignoring it because (mercifully) the expression 
seems to have become obsolete. We did not, for example, find it
in the British National Corpus.The language appears to have
regulated itself. Certainly, NODE, a one-volume practical dictionary 
of English, had no wish to revive the term!  It's more difficult for the 
OED, which is a dictionary of record on historical principles, with an 
obligation to record "the language as it is [and was], not as we would 
wish it to be."

About eight or nine years ago in America the NAACP mounted
a campaign, in my opinion misjudged, to persuade dictionary 
publishers to remove the term "nigger" from dictionaries, apparently
under the impression that dictionaries regulate the language or that
removing a word from dictionaries removes it from the language.
Anyone who has ever travelled on the subway from Manhattan to 
JFK Airport will know that the term is alive and well, and much used
among Black people speaking to Black people (males only??), 
apparentl without any hostile derogatory, or racist intent. The point 
about it is (I think -- am I right?) that it is a word that can ONLY be 
used by Black people (or perhaps only by Black Americans). In the 
mouth of a white person it is incredibly offensive, breaching the 
most solemn taboo in the language. Such facts need to be reported 
lexicographically (don't they?), insofar as such terms are still used. 
The lexicographer cannot regulate them, and can only ignore them if 
they die quietly by themselves. 

What do other people think?

Patrick 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Thapelo Otlogetswe 
  To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 2:15 PM
  Subject: [Lexicog] stereotypical beliefs and lexicography

  How would such derogatory information be represented in dictionaries? "Its all Greek to me", may not be as offensive as "work like a Black" and I would think that "work like a slave" would also be less offensive. And does a lexicographer have a responsibility in challenging steretypes through dictionary entries? Or his role should be better seen as that of a scientist from without looking in as it were, merely describing the uses of language that he sees. But does impartiality really exist in these matters or one is either challenging the status quo or endorsing it (a Terry Eagleton position in the later chapter of Literary Theory )? Put differently, are certain entries like 'work like Black' racist when used by racist communities and also racist when entered and discussed by lexicographers? In this case the lexicographer guilty of participating in the development and sustainance of racist views. On the other hand, would it be accurate to leave them out from a dictionary?

  Patrick Hanks <hanks at bbaw.de> wrote:

    So would it be true to say that Pg. "Isso é chinês para mim" = Eng.
    "It's all Greek to me" (which means 'incomprehensible')?

    "work like a slave / work like a Black" were common expressions
    in my youth, but I think they've been driven out by poltical correctness.

    Patrick

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Margarita Correia" 
    To: <
    Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:38 AM
    Subject: RE: [Lexicog] stereotypical beliefs and lexicography

    >
    > > Do all languages contain derogatory stereotypes about neighbouring
    > > peoples? ...
    >
    > In Portugal, we have at least one derogatory expression about Spanish,
    > our "historical enemies".
    > We say that "De Espanha, nem bom vento nem bom casamento" (From Spain,
    > neither good wind nor good marriage").
    > I don't know if in Brazil they use the same expression or if they have
    > others (I guess they must have some about Argentina).
    >
    > We also have several stereotypical expressions about people from other
    > countries. For instance, we say "Ver-se grego / negro para fazer
    > qualquer coisa" (Literally: to feel like a Greek / black person to do
    > something), wich is used to qualify things very difficult to do or very
    > hard (demanding lots of strenght). Note that the words "grego" and
    > "negro" in Portuguese have a very similar form.
    > In the case of grego, the basis of the expression is the written form of
    > this language (with a different alphabet) and for black people, the
    > basis is slavery, I guess.
    >
    > When something is very difficult, very tricky, we usually say "Isso é
    > chinês para mim" (literally: this is Chinese for me).
    >
    > These are only some examples. We have much more.
    >
    > Have a nice time.
    >
    > Margarita Correia
    >
    > margarita-c at netcabo.pt
    >
    >
    > -----Mensagem original-----
    > De: Peter Kirk [mailto:peterkirk at qaya.org]
    > Enviada: segunda-feira, 21 de Fevereiroo de 2005 12:18
    > Para: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
    > Assunto: Re: [Lexicog] stereotypical beliefs and lexicography
    >
    >
    >
    > On 20/02/2005 17:27, Patrick Hanks wrote:
    >
    > > Oho! Lexicographylist has woken up again!
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    > Maybe not. I can't think of any lexicalised examples in Azerbaijani,
    > although they can be very rude about their neighbours. I wonder if that
    > is because relations are too close to open warfare. I note that these
    > expressions in English are not so often about modern enemies as about
    > old ones, like the French, the Dutch and the Scots. I suspect a
    > graduation from open warfare to residual hatred to stereotyping with
    > such expressions to the lexicalisation and wider application of such
    > expressions.
    >
    > > ... The recent discussion of "Dutch courage", etc. provided
    > > some interesting examples. Does Dutch have derogatory expressions
    > > involving "English"? Or is Dutch stereotypically more polite -- or
    > > more parochial -- than English?
    >
    >
    > Just ask them how they stereotype the Belgians!
    >>
    > > ... the English stereotype for 'oasis' is that oases are calm.
    > > tranquil, quiet, and green ... But my much-travelled colleague
    > > Christiane Fellbaum tells me that in reality oases are typically
    > > noisy, smelly, dirty places full of bustling people and honking
    > > trucks. About the only things that a stereotypical oasis in English
    > > has in common with the real thing, it seems, is that it's found in a
    > > desert and has water!
    > >
    >
    > But is this because the reality of the oasis has changed more quickly
    > than the image? A century ago there would have been no honking trucks,
    > and probably in most cases a lot less people. And there certainly are
    > still tranquil oases in some places.
    >
    > -- 
    > Peter Kirk
    > peter at qaya.org (personal)
    > peterkirk at qaya.org (work)
    > http://www.qaya.org/
    >t;
    >
    >
    > -- 
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  Thapelo Otlogetswe 
  Information Technology Research Institute
  University of Brighton 
  Lewes Road, Brighton 
  BN2 4GJ, England 
  Tel: (+44) 1273 642912 (office) 
        (+44) 1273 642908 (fax) 
  http://www.itri.brighton.ac.uk/~Thapelo.Otlogetswe/

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