[Lexicog] Re: The irony of thou

[Hayim Sheynin]

I (a commoner) was raised in Russia by a Russian aristocratic lady who had right to be called Baroness (albeit some 35-40 years after October revolution). We spoke in French, and the strict rule was that I addressed her either ma tante,
tante Zina, or Voulez (veuillez) Vous ...? She always addressed me with my first name and tu. So in my case it was the difference in age.

Hayim Y. Sheynin

Hayim Y. Sheynin

billposer at alum.mit.edu wrote:                                  It seems natural to associate the rise of the tu/usted type of distinction
 with feudalism, but note that societies with distinctions between nobility
 and commoners developed in Europe long before we see this linguistic
 distinction. The Roman Empire, for example, begins at the latest in 27 BCE
 (some people date it to Caesar's appointment as dictator in 44 BCE).
 Most of Europe was feudal in the Dark Ages but the tu/usted distinction seems
 to appear only well into the Middle Ages. So, it certainly seems to
 be the case that you don't get such distinctions in egalitarian societies, but
 it isn't as if they arise rapidly in hierarchical societies.
 
 On another aspect of this, I knew a French couple in which the
 husband used tu toward his wife while she used vous toward her
 husband. Even the oldest people I know regarded this as odd.
 It isn't clear if it is really archaic or just idiosyncratic.
 The man was 15 years older than his wife, who was his former
 secretary, and of a rather authoritarian bent. (He subscribed to
 the newspaper of the monarchist-fascist movement and expressed
 agreement with its editorials.)
 
 In French there is also interesting variation in how you address
 older members of the family. In many families children address
 their parents as vous but their aunts and uncles as tu.
 
 Bill
 
 
     
                       

       
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