[Lexicog] The Irony of Thou

[Marc Fryd]

I have indeed found numerous instances of "mon zami" on the internet. A fair
proportion are theatrical representations of popular French as spoken in the
Maghreb by poorly literate speakers. As such, it is likely to be adopted by the
younger more literate generations as a proud token of their former linguistic
difference, more precisely a combination of self-derision and tolerant fondness
for their forefathers' imprecise expressions. The following link shows an
elaborate piece of poetic work incorporating many such theatrical features.
http://alger-roi.fr/Alger/sabir/pages_liees/lion_do_marocanes.htm

I have serious doubts, however, as to the actual existence of this proclitic /z/
in contemporary spontaneous (i.e. not poetic representations!) Maghreb French,
and none of the younger Algerians I have conferred with are familiar with it.
But hypercorrective linking /z/ is in any case a recurrent feature in French
(i.e. "ça coûte cent /z/ euros"), and is found indeed in Caribbean varieties as
a floating proclitic morpheme "quat'zassiettes"... So the putative "mon zami"
is perfectly predictable in this respect.
As to the contextualisations suggested for the possible production of "tu" or
"vous" in the course of exchanges between French and Algerian speakers, I am
surprised at FG's reaction, since in so doing I was precisely putting words
into the mouths of human beings within real life situations in order (always a
risky linguistic business, I'll grant you...) in order to evaluate their
pragmatic likelihood.
Marc FRYD




Selon Fritz Goerling <Fritz_Goerling at sil.org>:

> I have heard “mon zami” in France. Examples can be found on the Internet
> easily.
>
> Now the cases which I constructed for either French doctor towards Algerian
> or
>
> Algerian doctor towards Frenchman are, of course, hypothetical. I did not
> think
>
> of the addressee being from the upper class especially or a blue-collar
> worker.
>
> I thought of a foreigner as a human being.
>
> It bothers me that people change their form of speech towards
>
> foreigners. This can happen in German by talking to foreigners by using a
>
> grammar simplified to the level of using only infinitives as a verbal form
>
> “du gehen Kaufhaus” (= you go store), and the informal “du” – while the
>
> formal respectful “Sie” would be expected. What if it turns out that the
>
> addressee  has received his Ph.D. in Germany and speaks
>
> better German than the German?! I am sure that cases like that of simplified
>
>
> speech towards foreigners can be mentioned from other nationalities.
>
> (By the way, German doctors would have to address any patient regardless of
>
> status by the formal “Sie” – unless they are on “Du” terms already. Apart
> from
>
> that only children are addressed by “Du”).
>
>
>
> Fritz Goerling
>
>
>
> I am not familiar with /z/ linking in Algerian French. I've asked around and
> none of my (younger) Algerian friends can say to be familiar with it either.
> Perhaps my memory needs to be jogged on this, and I could also ask older
> Algerians.
> Now, the use of "tu" would be perfectly normal on the part of the French
> doctor
> (we are talking here of a situation occurring in France, as there no longer
> are
> any French doctors practicing in Algeria, or in any case not in any
> significant
> numbers), and he/she would expect a reciprocal "tu". Now the case would of
> course not apply if the addressee was someone from the "upper classes" (I
> hastily bundle the academic community, the commercially successful new
> entrepreneurs, and all higher placed government officials, whether from the
> army, the police, etc.). In such a situation, mutual use of "vous" would be
> in
> order.
> Now, a Frenchman (tourist, businessman) travelling in Algeria and addressed
> as
> "tu" by an Algerian doctor would quite likely find it odd, and I have
> serious
> doubts that this could happen. Class and status consciousness would
> certainly
> prevent the use of "tu" by an Algerian doctor, undoubtedly perfectly "au
> fait"
> with such linguistic subtleties. The same Algerian doctor would of course
> likely use Arabic when speaking to a compatriot, but if any French came to
> be
> used, the "tu" pronoun would be used both ways, unless this doctor were
> adressing someone markedly from the upper classes.
>
> Marc FRYD
>
> Selon Fritz Goerling <Fritz_Goerling@ <mailto:Fritz_Goerling%40sil.org>
> sil.org>:
>
> > Talking about that mock camaraderie, I wonder how an educated Algerian
> would
> > react when addressed by an French doctor whom he has never consulted
> before
> > by the question "mon zami, qu'est-ce que je peux faire pour toi? Où est-ce
> > que ça te fait mal?" (not "mon ami" but "mon zami")
> > (translation "my friend, what can I do for you/tu? Where does it hurt
> > you/tu?)
> > Now the other way round: How might a Frenchman (say an educated one) react
> > if addressed in such a way by an Algerian doctor?
> > In West African French (as spoken in Mali, Burkina-Faso, Côte d'Ivoire,
> > Sénégal)
> > one might address almost any stranger by "chef" (chief) and "tu", when
> > asking for a service, like talking to a gas station attendant. "chef" is
> > deprived of any formal traits in such situations, but you better address a
> > policeman by "chef" and "vous."
> >
> > Fritz Goerling
> >
> > The fact that in Algerian French as used by non educated speakers one can
> > combine the formal form of address "Monsieur" with the informal pronoun
> "tu"
> > surely means that "tu" is deprived there any informal traits.
> > In Parisian French, however, I can certify that the use of "tu" by a
> > complete
> > stranger is in no way neutral.
> > A whole range of contexts may come to mind, from the vagrant street
> > person pretending to erase with the use of this pronoun any trace of
> social
> > division in order to gain access to that deeper level where all men are
> born
> > equal, etc., to the mock familiarity of the market stall vendor who is so
> > confident that his putative customer shares his own passion for the
> intrisic
> > value of the goods he is peddling that this creates a level of complicit
> > familiarity which transcends social barriers.
> > If one is led, accidentally no doubt, to turn on the television these days
> > and
> > manages to sit through only a few minutes of one of those programmes where
> a
> > glitzy TV presenter welcomes a well-known politician, say someone known
> for
> > his
> > burly character, for instance, one will note with linguistic curiosity how
> > the
> > presenter brings the politician to eat in his hand, so to speak, by the
> mere
> > use of that "tu" pronoun. The said politician will of course play ball,
> > only too pleased to show that beyond all previous appearances to the
> > contrary,
> > he really is a very human person.
> > But how resilient, really, is that mock camaraderie? Only recently on a
> > forum I
> > found myself drawn to use "tu" with fellow members and with one of the
> > administrators, with whom I had a lengthy technical exchange of emails. I
> > was
> > then led to call that lady on the phone, whereupon I noted with interest
> how
> > insistent her use of "vous" was, throughout our conversation. The switch
> > from
> > the noncommittal website exchanges to the person to person oral
> > conversation,
> > clearly explained here the demise of our former camaraderie.
> > Just one last anecdote. It is a known fact that traditional usage in upper
> > class
> > families required husband and wife to use "vous" when adressing each
> other.
> > Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir, for instance, made a point of
> > adhering
> > to this formal usage, no doubt in order to place their own relationship on
> a
> > par with their literay ambitons. However, I keep a distinct memory of a
> > couple
> > of Bohemian Parisian aristocrats who used unreservedly the democratic "tu"
> > in
> > everyday situations and who, or so they confided in me..., only shifted to
> > "vous" in situations of more meaningful intimacy!
> > Marc FRYD
> >
> > Selon Fritz Goerling <Fritz_Goerling@ <mailto:Fritz_Goerling%40sil.org>
> sil.org>:
> >
> > > Which French of Algiers? Street French probably. (...)>
> > >
> > > Fritz Goerling
>
>
>
>


-- 



 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    mailto:lexicographylist-digest at yahoogroups.com 
    mailto:lexicographylist-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    lexicographylist-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/