[Lexicog] Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymology

[Hayim Sheynin]

Dear Ken,
   
  Excuse me that I interfere relating to your message. This should read
  "zapis' aktov grazhdaskogo sostojanija" unless you are recording a regional
  pronunciation. It is known to Russian speakers as ZAGS, and this abbreviation 
  should be treated as a noun, because of its usage: Ja poshjol v ZAGS, po
  zapisjam iz ZAGSa, ja byl v ZAGSe, zaregistrirovano ZAGSom. The same 
  relates to other frequently used Russian abbreviations (e.g.: ZhAKT, MVD, MID). 
   
  Secondly, I am in doubt that it can be understood as "vital statisics office." 
  It is just office for legal registration of acts of births, marriages, producing passports
  (a kind of identity card) and registration of deaths, that before 1917 was done in 
  the local offices of police (politsejskaja chast'). Now it is just the state recording 
  office joint to militsija under auspices of Interior Department (Ministerstvo 
  Vnutrennikh Del), and frequently inside of the same militsija office. This 
  office replaced former registration by churches, synagogues, etc. Its records
  may or may not used for statistics.(demography).
   
  Best wishes,
   
  Hayim Y. Sheynin
   
   
   
  Kenneth Keyes <ken_keyes at sil.org> wrote:
            David, 
   
  Thanks for responding. What I was trying to demonstrate here was that this kk phrase is a compound noun is calque derived from the Russian 
  "zapis aktov grazhdanskovo sostajanijie" = record of documentation of the situation of citizens, i.e. vital statistics office. 
   
  I believe while this is a phrase, "vital statistics office" functions as a noun. The phrase "vital statistics" also functions as a noun.  What I am trying to establish is, what relationship do calques have to their original "loanwords"? For example, a common kk calque for typesetting is maetin tery "to pick texts" which is a calque from the Russian nabor tekstov, lit. "collection of texts". This sounds strange in kk to me, it sounds like you're picking fruit off a tree. There are many, many such calques in kk, as the language struggles to transform itself from vocabulary suitable for nomadic herdsmen to one which can accomodate a modern technological society. 
   
  Ken

    
---------------------------------
  From: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com [mailto:lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Frank
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 10:18 AM
To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Lexicog] Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymology


  
       I can't read Cyrillic script and I'm not too familiar with Shoebox or Toolbox or FieldWorks, but I think I see two problems here. It looks to me like you are citing an example of a phrase, and I would not try to give an etymology for a phrase. Words have etymologies; phrases don't. Or in the case of a calque, I suppose you could consider the source from another language as being a kind of etymology, but we wouldn't usually describe phrases as having etymologies.
   
  Also, I wouldn't assign a part of speech to a phrase either. It looks like you are calling this phrase a noun, and I don't think that is appropriate. A phrase may contain a noun but wouldn't be called a noun or any other part of speech. Instead of a word class label, some people might want to assign a label that would be appropriate to phrases such as "phr" or "np", but I prefer to just leave the part of speech blank for anything I would put into a dictionary that is comprised of more than one word.
   
  -- David Frank
   
  ---- Original Message ----- 
    From: Kenneth Keyes 
  To: flex at lists.sil.org ; lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 9:24 AM
  Subject: [Lexicog] Lexical Relations vs. Etymology
  

    Dear All, 
  
  Hi, I have another brainteaser for you:
  
  What relation do Calques bear to the language they are borrowed from? For example, I have the following entries:
  
  АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ  (АХАЖ) N  Eng vital statistics offfce - where changes in the lives of citizens are recorded Kaz азаматтардың өмір өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім Rus отдел записи актов гражданского состояния 
  АХАЖ  Contr АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ
  
  Cf. SFM export: 
  
  \lx АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ
  \sn 1
  \ps_en N
  \d_en vital statistics offfce - where changes in the lives of citizens are recorded
  \d_kk азаматтардың өмір өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім
  \d_ru отдел записи актов гражданского состояния
  
  \lx АХАЖ
  \et Contr
  \mn АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ
  
  This a calque from the Russian: 
  
  ЗАГС  N  Eng The government office where vital statistics are recorded. Kaz азаматтық Ñ
ал-аÑ
уалды тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу Rus отдел Записи Актов Гражданского Состояния calq: АХАЖ. (sem. domains: admin. - administration.) {coll.}
  
  \lx ЗАГС
  \sn 1
  \ps_en N
  \d_en The government office where vital statistics are recorded.
  \d_kk азаматтық Ñ
ал-аÑ
уалды тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу
  \d_ru отдел записи актов гражданского состояния
  \lf calq
  \lv АХАЖ
  \is_en admin.
  \sd_en administration
  \u_en coll.
  
  To handle this case, I created a lexical function called “Calque”. However, this is also the etymology of the word. How do I deal with the etymology? There are tons of these cases (of calques from Russian) in Eurasian languages. 
  
  Thanks for considering this! 
  
  Best regards,
  
  Ken

  


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Dr. Hayim Y. Sheynin
       
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