[Lexicog] Re: Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo
Scott
Scat at CFL.RR.COM
Thu Mar 20 15:31:05 UTC 2008
In LA (c.1990) one of my students in my evening class worked at a
{lavautos}.
Almost all of my students were second generation Hispanics with a
meaningless
high school diploma: they were functional illiterates in both Spanish and
English;
therefore, my example may be idiosyncratic.
I wish that I had had access to a group such as this one when I was writing
my
1982 dissertation on comparing and contrasting mass, count, and limited
count
nouns in English and Spanish.
Scott
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1.6.
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S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo
Posted by: "David Tuggy"
<mailto:david_tuggy at sil.org?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Spanish%20V%20%2B%20O%20%3D%2
0S%20compounds%20%28was%20Re%3A%20Lexical%20Relations%20vs%2E%20Etymo>
david_tuggy at sil.org <http://profiles.yahoo.com/davidtuggy> davidtuggy
Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:56 pm (PDT)
lavacoches is also common in (some parts of) Mexico, usually
written as one word. The awkwardness of lavaautos for reading is
probably more of a factor than any structural difference between
compound and phrase.
It looks like you (or somebody) went through my article and got
even the nonce-form espantacucarachas. Cool.
An interesting subcase is forms like trepamonos
[clambers-monkeys] 'jungle gym' and Cantarranas [sings-frogs]
'Frog-croak creek' (both in the Wiki list) where the noun is
subject, not object of the verb (V+S=Instr/Loc?). Yet the verb
continues to be 3psg, and the noun to be plural: you say neither
trepanmonos nor trepamono.
Anyway, lots of fun.
--David T
Andrew Dunbar wrote: On Wiktionary I have been building a
collection of these terms
<
<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compou
nds> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_\
noun_compounds> which everybody is welcome to contribute to.
An intersting new one I've been watching in Mexico is "lava
autos" which I have seen written in one or two words in the
singular and plural form, always on signs with no other context.
In Central America I saw car washes go by several names but not
this one.
Andrew Dunbar.
On 20/03/2008, David Tuggy < <mailto:david_tuggy%40sil.org>
david_tuggy at sil.org
<mailto: <mailto:david_tuggy%40sil.org> david_tuggy at sil.org> > wrote: OK.
There are all
kinds of things that are named by V+O=S nouns that are not
imported from other countries/cultures as far as I can see; this
construction is quite productive. Surely, you can see it in
productive use most clearly when the item it is describing is
new, and quite commonly new items come from outside the speech
community, but I wouldn't have thought foreign-ness was an
important feature of these compounds.
Yes, certainly these compounds are a part (a prolific part) of
the "vulgar" speech. But they are common in everybody's speech,
as far as I can tell: highbrow as well as vulgar.
Anyway, they are a fascinating topic.
--David Tuggy
Michael Nicholas wrote: Dear David,
"Imported" meaning an object is invented. The country of
origin is not Spain. The object appears in Spain. It has to be
given a name in Spanish. I suspect that 150 years ago, French was
the language spoken by the cultured classes. I also suspect that
if the imported object already had a word to describe it in
French, then a calque would be applied. I also think
that although apposition obviously exists in Spanish it is now
the most popular way to create a description in Spanish for an
object which is new to the language. I believe this descriptive
process is so popular that it is even present in what would be
considered "vulgar" speech hence Plaza Castilla not Plaza de
Castilla or "Bocata jamón" and even in incorrect
combinations such as "un misil Sam" Finally, I rather think
it is not a problem of "being dense" but of my inability to
explain myself with sufficient clarity! Michael
David Tuggy < <mailto:david_tuggy%40sil.org> david_tuggy at sil.org> <mailto:
<mailto:david_tuggy%40sil.org> david_tuggy at sil.org>
escribió: Who originally calqued from
whom is of course a question for historical linguists to answer
if they can (and perhaps in this case they can do so with some
degree of certainty.) I am sure the V+O=S construction is very
firmly entrenched in Spanish at this point and not foreign in any
relevant synchronic sense I can think of. The "but" in the phrase
"but 'calques'" I would object to. Seeing them as calques doesn't
explain them away.
I don't know what the phrase means, "if there is a Spanish
construction that is visually the same it will attract
'calques'." I can think of a couple of ways it could be
understood, and agree with at least one of them, but I'm confused
by it.
What does it mean for an object to be "imported"?
Are you saying that each individual compound goes through these
three stages, that "matamoscas" (kills-flies) 'flyswatter' was
once a N+A compound and some day will be N+N? Surely not? So what
are you saying? Granted that Spanish does have all three compound
types (and others)—why or where does it help us to think of
one type evolving into another?
Also, I don't get the point of the examples. Granted, techo solar
is N+A and probably best seen as a phrase rather than a compound.
Guardacoches is a 3ps V + (obj) N, whether it is a phrase or a
compound probably being somewhat moot (I would lean towards
calling it a compound; people write it both as one word [5K on
Google] and as two [1K incl hyphenated guarda-coches]). Delantero
centro can be taken as N+N (but also as N+A, or A+A -- why not?)
and is likely a phrase as opposed to a compound. What does Plaza
Castilla have to do with it, or how is its use in popular speech
different from its use in other genres?
Sorry if I'm being dense.
--David Tuggy
Michael Nicholas wrote: Dear David,
I was once told by a French lexicographer that the modern
objects in Spanish which are identified by the "para" initial
component are but "calques" from the French. I was also
told that if there is a Spanish construction that is visually
the same it will attract "calques" I think compounds
in Spanish - when they refer to objects that are imported tend to
go through the stages of: noun plus adjective (non
compound) verb - third person singular - plus noun and
finally evolve into noun plus noun. This can be seen modern terms
So: techo solar, guarda coches, delantero centro and even -
in popular speech - Plaza Castilla
David Tuggy < <mailto:david_tuggy%40sil.org> david_tuggy at sil.org> <mailto:
<mailto:david_tuggy%40sil.org> david_tuggy at sil.org>
escribió: <snip>
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