printability and standardization

Sat Jan 10 18:12:56 UTC 2004

Hi Christina,
thanks for the refs. My last name is Dutch/Flemish.
My question arose not really from anything to do with
AAVE, but rather from my experience in Bolivia where
standardization of Quechua and Aymara has been quite
controversial, and white (and even some non-white)
linguists have, for the most part, turned a deaf ear
to native speakers' complaints about it; the language
policy-makers there are so gung-ho on standardization
that they seem unwilling to even consider that it
might have any potentially negative consequences. (I
have a short piece coming out soon on this point in
the Int. Jrl. of the Sociology of Language).
A.L.

--- Christina Paulston <paulston+ at pitt.edu> wrote:
> Aurolyn L (what lge is your last name?)
>     Brown, B. 1993. The social consequences of
> writing Louisiana French. In
> Lin S, 22.67-101. You'll find more references in her
> bibliography. A Fraser
> Gupta has an article on Singapore in JMMD (I think)
> with a title like "When
> mother tongue instruction is not ?the best choice?"
> within the last 5 years.
> They'll lead you to others. Christina
> PS No one has ever claimed that it is not easier to
> learn to read in one's
> mother tongue. The point is children can also - even
> if it takes longer -
> learn to read in a second language or dialect and
> when the social
> circumstances are compelling, it may be a better
> alternative. Vide the
> Ebonics affair a few years back. Would any of you
> white linguists really
> want to argue that your superior linguistic
> knowledge gives you the right to
> argue with inner city Black parents that their
> children should learn to read
> in AAVE -- Samy Alim might but then he is not a
> white linguist and has that
> right; I don't think we do.
>
> ----------
> >From: Aurolyn Luykx <aurolynluykx at yahoo.com>
> >To: lgpolicy-list at ccat.sas.upenn.edu
> >Subject: Re: printability and standardization
> >Date: Fri, Jan 9, 2004, 11:38 AM
> >
>
> > Christina P.:
> > Can you provide the full reference for Brown, and
> some
> > others regarding the negative attitudinal effects
> of
> > standardizing vernaculars for use in bilingual
> ed.?
> > Kendall King's book on Ecuadorian Quichua gives
> > another example of same.
> > Thanks,
> > Aurolyn Luykx
> >
> > ... The literature on bilingual education (eg
> >> Brown's dissertation on LA
> >> French-English) is full of examples of the
> negative
> >> effect on dialect
> >> attitudes by putting a written, standardized
> version
> >> of the dialect into the
> >> classroom (to normal people, not linguists) -
> that
> >> was my intended
> >> reference.
> >> But I expect that no one contributing to this
> >> discussion really knows what
> >> the reaction is of the Ladin speaking population
> >> itself. I respectfully
> >> submit we should find out before we go on any
> >> further. Christina Paulston
> >>
> >> ----------
> >> >From: Joshua Fishman <joshuaafishman at yahoo.com>
> >> >To: lgpolicy-list at ccat.sas.upenn.edu
> >> >Subject: Re: printability and standardization
> >> >Date: Wed, Jan 7, 2004, 3:09 PM
> >> >
> >>
> >> > And of course, there is standardization in
> >> > non-literate (oral) cultures! JAF
> >> >
> >> > --- "Harold F. Schiffman"
> >> > <haroldfs at ccat.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >> >> Thank you, Joshua, for reminding us that
> >> >> standardization and print are separate issues.
> >> > I have tried to make that case for 'standard'
> >> > Spoken Tamil, which doesn't often appear in
> >> > print, since literary Tamil (with extreme
> >> > diglossic differences) serves that purpose.
> >> > People who work in western linguistic
> traditions
> >> > tend to think that print equals
> standardization,
> >> > and nothing else matters.
> >> >> Sanskrit developed a method of
> >> >> controlling 'standard' without resorting to
> >> >> print, and other languages can
> >> >> do the same.
> >> >>
> >> >> My article on this is ``Standardization and
> >> >> Restandardization: the case of
> >> >> Spoken Tamil." Language in Society, Vol. 27
> (3)
> >> >> 359-385. (1998)  and it's
> >> >> also available on my website at
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/public/stantam/STANTAM.HTM
> >> >>
> >> >> Hal Schiffman
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Joshua Fishman wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > The discussion of (non-)Standardization of
> >> >> Ladin
> >> >> > and the "reluctance" of the Italian
> >> >> government to
> >> >> > utilize it in print should remind us that
> >> >> print
> >> >> > and standardization are quite separate and
> >> >> > independent of each other. Many languages
> >> >> have
> >> >> > been printed (and, of course, also written)
> >> >> far
> >> >> > before their standardization and, indeed,
> >> >> their
> >> >> > use in print contributed greatly to their
> >> >> > ultimate standardization (viz. D-B Kerler
> >> >> 2003).
> >> >> > Of course, standardization did not rescue
> >> >> Latin,
> >> >> > Greek, Hebrew, etc. from disappearing as
> >> >> > vernaculars. It would be particularly
> >> >> > "indelicate" for the Italian government to
> >> >> snub
> >> >> > Ladin due to Ladin's lack of full
> >> >> > standardization, given the lack of full
> >> >> > standardization of Italian to this very day.
> >> >> > English too is far from being fully
> >> >> standardized,
> >> >> > which should lead most of us to be rather
> >> >> less
> >> >> > dismissive of Ladin for this same very human
> >> >> > "failing". All in all, "complete
> >> >> standardization"
> >> >> > is a will-of-the-whisp and some small
> >> >> languages
> >> >> > are far closer to this goal (acting on the
> >> >> > mistaken assumption that it will promote
> >> >> their
> >> >> > acceptance) than much larger ones who
> >> >> couldn't
> >> >> > care less. Joshua A. Fishman
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > =====
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
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> >
>
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