[lg policy] Re: lgpolicy-list Digest, Vol 43, Issue 23

Harold Schiffman haroldfs at GMAIL.COM
Wed Nov 21 16:15:05 UTC 2012


All:

Okay, I stand corrected--I'm the one who said Hindi was the national
language of India, so I was wrong.  But I'm wrong because, like it or
not, many people claim that Hindi IS the national language, so I've
gotten used to that usage.  I apologize!

HS


On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:43 PM, RAMANUJAM MEGANATHAN <
kankoduthavanithan at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All
> In the discussion of 'national' and official language, there was a mention
> about Hindi as a national language of India by HS. I would like to bring to
> the notice of all THAT INDIA DOES NOT HAVE A NATIONAL LANGUAGE. Hindi is
> the official language of India and English is Associate Official language.
> There was a national commission in the 1956 on official language in India.
> This was as a result of the debates in the constitutional drafting
> committee that declaring Hindi as a national language may lead to
> linguistic disputes and division.
> Indian Constitution has a separate schedule on Languages.
> RAMANUJAM MEGANATHAN
> NCERT, INDIA
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:31 PM, <
> lgpolicy-list-request at groups.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: national vs officila language (dzo at bisharat.net)
>>    2. Re: national vs officila language (Harold Schiffman)
>>    3. RE: The Dark Reality of Secession Fantasy (jayrkirk42)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 05:08:27 +0000
>> From: dzo at bisharat.net
>> Subject: Re: [lg policy] national vs officila language
>> To: "Language Policy List" <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <1246215828-1353388108-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1201909381- at b14.c17.bise6.blackberry
>> >
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>>
>> I don't have access to Fishman's article at this time either, but hope
>> it's okay to offer some impressions on use of the terms.
>>
>> As varied as the definitions of "offIcial language" may be (that subject
>> has been a matter of discussion on this list), usage of "national language"
>> seems even more varied and less exact.
>>
>> In addition to the definition mentioned by Dr. Mostari, "national
>> language" may also be a category of language defined by law alongside
>> "official language." This is the case in a number of African countries for
>> example (notably in former French colonies). This usage has been omitted
>> from some discussions of the term that I've seen.
>>
>> On the other hand, I have heard foreigners - again in Africa - refer to
>> the official language as being the national language (meaning presumably
>> that the former is intended to be used nationwide?). This sort of
>> conflation of the two concepts seems to me to be fairly common.
>>
>> Returning to national language as a legal category in Africa, some
>> countries so designate a few of the more widely spoken, while some others
>> include all (indigenously spoken) languages of their population, which
>> would indeed mean that some with very few speakers are considered "national
>> languages."
>>
>> My understanding is that "national" in this context depends on how one
>> means the term. Clearly "national" is not necessarily the same as
>> nationwide. But it could mean that it is part of or belongs to the nation,
>> even if in the case of many languages, only a minority of the population
>> speaks it.
>>
>> Brann (1994) discusses the terminology in more detail, including 4
>> meanings of "national language," and relationship to other terms. Citation
>> below; there is a summary of main points on the Wikipedia article on the
>> subject. (Probably should be a summary of Fishman's article there too.)
>>
>> Brann, C.M.B. 1994. "The National Language Question: Concepts and
>> Terminology." Logos [University of Namibia, Windhoek] Vol 14: 125–134
>>
>> HTH,
>>
>> Don Osborn
>>
>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mostari hind <hmostari at yahoo.com>
>> Sender: lgpolicy-list-bounces+dzo=bisharat.net at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:50:40
>> To: Language Policy List<lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
>> Reply-To: Language Policy List <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
>> Subject: RE: [lg policy] national vs officila language
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> This message came to you by way of the lgpolicy-list mailing list
>> lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>> To manage your subscription unsubscribe, or arrange digest format:
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>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:33:11 -0500
>> From: Harold Schiffman <haroldfs at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [lg policy] national vs officila language
>> To: Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net>,      Language Policy List
>>         <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CACqQ=kKv3eikJV8DLimUOkeON2CpAiU2AGeTszpK0npn=
>> xpFWQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> This is a confusing topic, and I don't think there's a way to lock down a
>> definition.
>> In India, e.g. Hindi is the "national" language, but not the only
>> "official" one, since English is also co-official at the national level.
>> Then there are the "official" languages of various states, a lot of them.
>>
>> HS
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:08 AM, <dzo at bisharat.net> wrote:
>>
>> > I don't have access to Fishman's article at this time either, but hope
>> > it's okay to offer some impressions on use of the terms.
>> >
>> > As varied as the definitions of "offIcial language" may be (that subject
>> > has been a matter of discussion on this list), usage of "national
>> language"
>> > seems even more varied and less exact.
>> >
>> > In addition to the definition mentioned by Dr. Mostari, "national
>> > language" may also be a category of language defined by law alongside
>> > "official language." This is the case in a number of African countries
>> for
>> > example (notably in former French colonies). This usage has been omitted
>> > from some discussions of the term that I've seen.
>> >
>> > On the other hand, I have heard foreigners - again in Africa - refer to
>> > the official language as being the national language (meaning presumably
>> > that the former is intended to be used nationwide?). This sort of
>> > conflation of the two concepts seems to me to be fairly common.
>> >
>> > Returning to national language as a legal category in Africa, some
>> > countries so designate a few of the more widely spoken, while some
>> others
>> > include all (indigenously spoken) languages of their population, which
>> > would indeed mean that some with very few speakers are considered
>> "national
>> > languages."
>> >
>> > My understanding is that "national" in this context depends on how one
>> > means the term. Clearly "national" is not necessarily the same as
>> > nationwide. But it could mean that it is part of or belongs to the
>> nation,
>> > even if in the case of many languages, only a minority of the population
>> > speaks it.
>> >
>> > Brann (1994) discusses the terminology in more detail, including 4
>> > meanings of "national language," and relationship to other terms.
>> Citation
>> > below; there is a summary of main points on the Wikipedia article on the
>> > subject. (Probably should be a summary of Fishman's article there too.)
>> >
>> > Brann, C.M.B. 1994. "The National Language Question: Concepts and
>> > Terminology." Logos [University of Namibia, Windhoek] Vol 14: 125–134
>> >
>> > HTH,
>> >
>> > Don Osborn
>> >
>> > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: mostari hind <hmostari at yahoo.com>
>> > Sender: lgpolicy-list-bounces+dzo=bisharat.net at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>> > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:50:40
>> > To: Language Policy List<lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
>> > Reply-To: Language Policy List <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
>> > Subject: RE: [lg policy] national vs officila language
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > This message came to you by way of the lgpolicy-list mailing list
>> > lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>> > To manage your subscription unsubscribe, or arrange digest format:
>> > https://groups.sas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/lgpolicy-list
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > This message came to you by way of the lgpolicy-list mailing list
>> > lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>> > To manage your subscription unsubscribe, or arrange digest format:
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>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
>>
>>  Harold F. Schiffman
>>
>> Professor Emeritus of
>>  Dravidian Linguistics and Culture
>> Dept. of South Asia Studies
>> University of Pennsylvania
>> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305
>>
>> Phone:  (215) 898-7475
>> Fax:  (215) 573-2138
>>
>> Email:  haroldfs at gmail.com
>> http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:50:42 -0600
>> From: jayrkirk42 <jayrkirk42 at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: RE: [lg policy] The Dark Reality of Secession Fantasy
>> To: Language Policy List <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
>> Message-ID: <9yeqa5h1u9s0dha0bnb35tc8.1353426642643 at email.android.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Martyrdom syndrome - everybody's got it, legitimate or not. If you
>> perceive that your ideology is being persecuted, it somehow makes it more
>> legitimate.
>>
>> I enjoyed this, being a Floridian recently transplanted to Texas. In
>> Florida I grew up with the regional identity of the South being important.
>> In Texas, the state identity of being Texan is the big deal. In both cases,
>> there was a sense that these identities are more American than America
>> itself, as you said. Granted, Texans would probably be fine having their
>> own identity, since they aghast do, anyway.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G TouchGareth Price <
>> garethowenprice at gmail.com> wrote:Hi All,
>>
>> I thought some of you might find interesting a recent op-ed I wrote for
>> the Huffington Post. It's on language, nationalism and the recent secession
>> petitions in the US:
>>
>>
>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/garethprice/secession-petitions_b_2152763.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
>>
>> (If that link breaks, then this one is shorter:
>> http://tinyurl.com/c35d6fn  )
>> Comments welcome - bearing in mind that some of the nuances of the issues
>> have to be glossed over for a non-academic audience.
>>
>> There's also a couple of older pieces on language and politics, here:
>>
>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/garethprice/
>>
>> Apologies for the paucity of my contributions to the list this year ...
>> I've been snowed under ...
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Gareth
>>
>> --
>> Gareth Price, Ph.D
>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>> Linguistics Program
>> Duke University
>> 316 Languages, Box 90259
>> Durham, NC 27708-0259
>> USA
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> End of lgpolicy-list Digest, Vol 43, Issue 23
>> *********************************************
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> This message came to you by way of the lgpolicy-list mailing list
> lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
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>


-- 
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

 Harold F. Schiffman

Professor Emeritus of
 Dravidian Linguistics and Culture
Dept. of South Asia Studies
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305

Phone:  (215) 898-7475
Fax:  (215) 573-2138

Email:  haroldfs at gmail.com
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/

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