[Linganth] Re: fish and chips

[Harold F. Schiffman]

In my experience, what Americans would do here is to say "two *orders* of
fish and chips" (or whatever) and that would disambiguate this in the US,
at least. I rarely order or eat fast food, but I notice my son has the
dialect down perfectly, and I overhear the cashiers and clerks etc. saying
this, too.  "An order of this, a DOUBLE order of that".  Waitpersons in
other kinds of restaurants also refer to "orders" (and "side orders") of
this and that.  I wonder if this would work with the Chinese restaurants
in Britain?  (Interestingly:  where I live, if you order Chinese food by
phone, especially for pickup, you are identified by your *phone number*,
not your name. And they also prefer the *number* of the item you are
ordering...I guess spelling the names, or understanding them is too
difficult.).  I sympathize--nobody ever gets my name right, despite
frequent attempts to disambiguate:  too many f's and s's...

Hal Schiffman

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Martin Walsh wrote:

> Re fish & chips twice.  Galey asks "Is there any item like fish and chips
> which comes with an non-countable and a countable?"  I can't immediately
> think of an English English example that parallels "fish & chips twice"
> apart from variations on the same (e.g. "pie & chips twice).  This leads me
> to wonder whether our English English fish & chips twice has become frozen
> (as it were) as a construction that's limited to this one common context in
> which asking for two countables & a non-countable would otherwise be
> ambiguous.  But I'm usually more concerned about the amount of chips that
> I'm getting than the linguistic expression of quantity, so wouldn't be
> surprised to learn that there are other examples past and/or present out
> there.
>
> The jokes and English expatriate anguish make it clear that "fish & chips
> twice" is a regional / subcultural idiom, puzzling also to the Chinese staff
> in my local take-away (where food doesn't come on a plate or anything like
> it, but is wrapped in paper, sometimes each item separately and sometimes as
> combinations of one fish & one portion of chips).  Ordering "two fish
> suppers" as Alex does in Scotland won't work in most of England and is also
> the subject of humorous comment on the internet.  Jennifer suggests that I
> should ask for "two orders of fish & chips", but in my English a food order
> is something more inclusive, e.g. it's possible to talk about or even ask
> for "two orders of fish & chips twice", referring say to my order and
> someone else's.  Still, I may be wrong, so I'm now waiting for my
> health-conscious wife's permission to rigorously test this and other
> hypotheses in a carefully selected sample of fish & chip shops, ethnic
> take-aways and fast food restaurants.
>
> Martin
>
> Dr. Martin T. Walsh
> Department of Social Anthropology
> University of Cambridge
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "GABRIELLA MODAN" <modan.1 at osu.edu>
> To: "Martin Walsh" <kisutu at hotmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Linganth] Substitute x for y
>
>
> > Thanks for the clarification -- interesting that you
> > can't do it for countable items. Is there any item
> > like fish and chips which comes with a non-countable
> > and a countable? The American equivalent would be
> > burgers and fries -- could you say "burger and
> > chips, twice"? In the US we would say "two orders of
> > fish and chips", but now I'm wondering how "2
> > burgers and fries" would be interpreted.
> >
> > best,
> >
> > Galey
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Martin Walsh <kisutu at hotmail.com>
> > Date: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:12 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Linganth] Substitute x for y
> >
> >> Gabriella,
> >>
> >> I can only think of asking for "fish & chips"
> > twice in that way
> >> (certainly
> >> not a sausage or other singular noun).  It seems
> > to be widespread
> >> working
> >> class (in particular) English.  If you google for
> > "fish and chips
> >> twice"
> >> you'll find lots of examples, e.g. jokes along the
> > lines of:
> >>
> >> [1] A tourist walked into a fish and chip shop in
> > Ireland. "I'll
> >> have fish
> >> and chips twice," he orders. "Sure, I heard you
> > the first time,"
> >> came the
> >> reply.
> >>
> >> or complaints by British expats:
> >>
> >> [2]
> >> I seem to be having problems ordering "Fish and
> > Chips Twice".
> >> I've tried:
> >> Fish and chips twice.
> >> Two lots of fish and chips.
> >> Two separate fish and chips.
> >> Fish and chips for two.
> >> ...
> >> and various other combinations. Each time I get 2
> > fish and 1
> >> (minimum)
> >> chips.
> >> Anyone know the right combination of words?
> >> Cheers
> >> Al
> >>
> >> or miscellaneous references like the following:
> >>
> >> [3] Margate is a sanctioned nowhere, a dumping
> > ground for
> >> immigrants,
> >> runaways and inner-city scroungers. Barter is the
> > favoured form of
> >> commercial transaction. Temporary inhabitants,
> > with no stake in
> >> society, no
> >> voice in civic debate, forget their native
> > languages and struggle
> >> with the
> >> Esperanto of survivalism. Kids learn English by
> > parroting "10
> >> Benson and
> >> Hedges" or "Fish and chips twice, please."
> >>
> >> plus the name of an album by a group called
> > Beaucoup Fish:
> >>
> >> [4] Fish and chips twice please...
> >>
> >> One solution to my troubles may be to ask for "two
> > portions of
> >> fish & chips
> >> please".  I'll try that next time.
> >>
> >> Martin Walsh
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "GABRIELLA MODAN" <modan.1 at osu.edu>
> >> To: "Martin Walsh" <kisutu at hotmail.com>
> >> Cc: "linganth-list" <linganth at cc.rochester.edu>;
> > "Ronald Kephart"
> >> <rkephart at unf.edu>
> >> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:44 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Linganth] Substitute x for y
> >>
> >>
> >> > Fish and chips twice -- is that a common British
> > way of asking
> >> for 2 of
> >> > something? Are there regions in the US where
> > people say that?
> >> I've never
> >> > heard it before.
> >> >
> >> > Galey Modan
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: Martin Walsh <kisutu at hotmail.com>
> >> > Date: Monday, January 31, 2005 2:56 pm
> >> > Subject: Re: [Linganth] Substitute x for y
> >> >
> >> >> I sympathise with Ronald's wife because I too
> > get 'substitute'
> >> >> muddled,
> >> >> thinking that I can just substitute it for
> > (with?) 'exchange'.
> >> >> But then I
> >> >> also have trouble making myself understood when
> > I go to our local
> >> >> Chinese
> >> >> take-away and ask for fish and chips twice, I
> > mean fish and chips
> >> >> two times,
> >> >> two fish and chips, two fish and two chips, two
> > of everything, oh
> >> >> yes and a
> >> >> pot of curry sauce, no, only one of those...
> >> >>
> >> >> Martin Walsh
> >> >> Cambridge, England
> >> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>