Fwd: Re: zero-marked true partitives

[Frans Plank]

same goes for German:

PSEUDO:	fuenf Kilo/*Kilos Kartoffel
REAL:		fuenf Kilo/Kilos von den Kartoffeln

Note the obligatory inflectional inertness of the quantifying-unit 
word in the first construction -- which suggests (to me) that the 
"pseudo-partitive" construction is a classifier construction. 
Perhaps David has kept the correspondence some of us once had on this.

I've not checked, but I do believe German grammars mention this sort of thing.

Frans


>
>Date:         Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:16:54 +0100
>Reply-To: Nigel Vincent <nigel.vincent at MANCHESTER.AC.UK>
>Sender: Discussion List for ALT <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
>From: Nigel Vincent <nigel.vincent at MANCHESTER.AC.UK>
>Subject: Re: zero-marked true partitives
>Comments: To: Michael Noonan <noonan at CSD.UWM.EDU>
>To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>
>How about Danish:
>fem kilo kartofler 'five kilos of potatoes'
>but
>fem kilo af de kartofler 'five kilos of those potatoes'
>(Examples courtesy of my native speaking wife and daughter but see 
>Robin Allan,
>Philip Holmes & Tom Lundskaer-Nielsen 'Danish. A Comprehensive Grammar',
>London, Routledge, 1995, para 732 (e) for recognition of the 
>different types of
>partitive.)
>In fact in my experience, partitives in pedagogically oriented reference
>grammars aimed at an English speaking readership such as the above get quite a
>lot of space - see also for example Martin Maiden & Cecilia Robustelli 'A
>reference grammar of modern Italian', London, Edward Arnold, 2000, pp. 76-9. I
>suspect this is because of the fairly subtle differences in constructions with
>and without the use of the preposition corresponding to 'of' in what is a
>pretty common type of expression and one where Anglophone learners 
>tend to make
>mistakes. In other words, the tendency Mickey notes is probably characteristic
>of grammars of a certain kind and not by any means of all grammars.
>Nigel
>
>Quoting Michael Noonan <noonan at csd.uwm.edu>:
>
>>A few years ago, Masha Koptjevskaja-Tamm made a useful distinction between
>>'pseudo-partitives' and 'true partitives'.
>>
>>PSEUDO-PARTITIVE
>>a kilo of tea
>>
>>TRUE PARTITIVE
>>a kilo of that tea
>>
>>Pseudo-partitives are units of measure, but true partitives are parts of
>>things.  Some languages, like English, deal with the two sorts of
>>partitives the same way; some languages have different means of expressing
>>the two relationships.
>>
>>My question concerns languages that have zero-marked pseudo-partitives, as
>>in Chantyal:
>>
>>dwita kilo cHa
>>two   kilo tea
>>'two kilos of tea'
>>
>>Zero-marked pseudo-partitives involve simple juxtaposition of the measure
>>noun and the partitive NP.  In my limited sample, languages that have
>>zero-marked pseudo-partitives lack a true partitive, expressing the idea
>>clausally rather than within a noun phrase.  So, instead of a construction
>>like
>>
>>	I want two kilos of that tea.
>>
>>one would say something like:
>>
>>	That tea [topic], I want two kilos.
>>
>>Does anyone have any counterexamples; that is, does anyone know of a
>>language that has zero-marked pseudo-partitive that also has a true
>>partitive formed other than clausally?
>>
>>Thanks.  Grammars seldom note partitives of either sort, and true
>>partitives almost never.
>>
>>Mickey
>>
>>Michael Noonan
>>Professor of Linguistics
>>Dept. of English
>>University of Wisconsin
>>Milwaukee, WI  53201
>>USA
>>
>>Office:	  414-229-4539
>>Fax:	  414-229-2643
>>Messages: 414-229-4511
>>Webpage:  http://www.uwm.edu/~noonan
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA
>Associate Vice-President for Graduate Education
>
>
>Mailing address:     School of Languages, Linguistics & Cultures
>                     University of Manchester
>                     Manchester M13 9PL
>                     United Kingdom
>
>Tel (direct):        +44-(0)-161-275-3194
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