zero-marked true partitives

[Paolo Ramat]

Dear Wolfgang,
thanks for your remarks!
I have inserted some further observations directly in your letter.
Best,
Paolo

prof.Paolo Ramat
Università di Pavia
Dipartimento di Linguistica Teorica e Applicata
tel. ##39 0382 984 484
fax ##39 0382 984 487

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Wolfgang Schulze 
  To: Paolo Ramat 
  Cc: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG 
  Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 7:10 PM
  Subject: Re: zero-marked true partitives


  Dear Paolo,
  maybe that in German we have a larger number of such classifiers.
  No doubt, especially with mass nouns!  See e.g. 'drei Handvoll [not *Handvolle !] Salz' (vs. *drei Salz/ ??Saelze). Cp. Fr. Serzisko in H. Seiler/Chr.Lehmann (eds.), Apprehension.Das Sprachliche Erfassen von Gegenstaende.I, 1982; G. Narr:147-159. Ibid., p. 176,U.Koelver writes as follows:"hier [i.e. in Thai,Vietnam. and Chin.] erfuellt ein Klassifikator verbunden mit einem Demonstrativ keinerlei referentielle Funktion, sondern die Definitheit der NP haftet  allein am Demonstrativ, das die Identifizierung  des Redegegenstandes in relativer Distanz zur Sprechsituation bewirkt". This has to do with the initial query by M.Noonan: PSEUDO-PARTITIVE 'a kilo of tea', versus TRUE PARTITIVE 'a kilo of that tea'. Pseudo-partitives are units of measure. Moreover, ' Ein Glas Wein' is different from 'Ein Glas von diesem Wein'

  However, in my German, these are rarely used. This morning, I asked my wife who was on her way driving into town in order to do some shopping: "Bringst du einen Salat mit?" It was clear to her that I had in mind "einen Kopf Salat", but I guess she would have been rather irritated if I had used this construction. Something the like seems to happen when you ask  the bar keeper: "Ich hätte gerne ein Bier". The overt variant "Ich hätte gern ein Glas Bier" would be rather marked (and, maybe affected).  Neverless, some 'classifyer-like' constructions seem to be partitive in nature, compare: Gib mir mal ein Stück Zeitung (said in order clean up some dirt) [alternatively, we have: Gib mir mal n Stück vonner Zeitung / here, I use Colloquial German]. By the way: Kartoffelsalat, Fischsalat etc. are - according to my opinion - not examples of classification, but simply compounds (I guess this is what you wanted to say).
  Yes, indeed. 

   A 'Kopfsalat' falls into the same domain. 
  I am not quite sure: A Kopfsalat differs from other kinds of 'Salat' because of its shape ('Salat wie ein Kopf' : but a Kartoffelsalat isn't a 'Salat wie ein Fleisch'... ). 

  Hence, 'drei Kopf Kopfsalat' would theoretically (!) be possible...
  Best wishes,
  Wolfgang

  Paolo Ramat wrote: 
    Just a marginal note: 
    I agree with Frans: The 'pseudo-partitive construction' is in fact a classifier construction. 
    you can't buy in the greengrocer shop "Einen Salat", but just "Einen Kopf Salat", oder "Einen Kopfsalat", while in a restaurant you have to specify what  kind of salad you want: "Kartoffelsalat, Oelsalat...." , and even "Fleisch-" or "Fischsalat". 
    The 'true partitive' would be "Bitte geben Sie mir zwei Koepfe von diesem Salat". 

    Ciao! 
    Paolo 





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  Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Schulze                                                                     

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