SV: Reduplication OR pure diminutives

Mon Mar 4 17:46:01 UTC 2013

Dear all,

In keeping with the remark of Östen Dahl and Matthew Dryer this morning, French has a large bunch of diminutives which convey only a small size meaning e.g. plac-ette 'square-DIM', balis-ette 'beacon-DIM', potel-et 'post-DIM', brochur-ette 'brochure-DIM', bastid-ette 'walled_town-DIM', etc. A detailed account of diminutive in French is proposed in the reference below, where most of the issues hinted at in the present discussion have been addressed. 

Fradin Bernard & Fabio Montermini. 2009. "La morphologie évaluative". In Aperçus de morphologie du français, Fradin B., F. Kerleroux & M. Plénat (eds). 231-266. Saint-Denis: Presses Universitaires de Vincennes.

Best,

Bernard Fradin

Le 4 mars 2013 à 17:37, Paolo Ramat a écrit :

> Once the diminutive form has become an independent,autonomous word, you can get both in German and Italian enhancing NPs such as "the political situation is *un gran casino*" (meaning a big confusion [+]) and you can eat *un paninone* (a big/large panino)  with the superlative suff. -one, or drink "ein großes Schlückchen" .
> 
> Best
> 
> [+] nowadays the meaning of _casino_ is 'confusion'; cp. Fr. _bordel_
> 
> ..................................................
> Prof.Paolo Ramat
> Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS )
> Direttore del Centro "Lingue d'Europa: tipologia, storia e sociolinguistica" (LETiSS)
> Palazzo del Broletto - Piazza della Vittoria
> 
> 27100 Pavia
> 
> -----Messaggio originale----- From: Hartmut Haberland
> Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:49 PM
> To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
> Subject: SV: Reduplication OR pure diminutives
> 
> There a a lot of examples in German, too:
> Brot (bread) - Brötchen (bread roll)
> Haus (house) - Häuschen (toilet)
> Weib (wife) - Weibchen (female animal)
> Mann (male human) - Männchen (male animal)
> Frau (women) - Frauchen (female owner of a dog)
> Herr (lord) - Herrchen (male owner of a dog)
> Zapfen (tap) - Zäpfchen (uvula)
> Stab (stave) - Stäbchen (chopstick)
> Hut (hat) - Hütchen (several technical meanings, hat-like, small objects)
> not to speak of words in -chen that have originated as diminutives, but where the simplex either is obsolete, obscure or not existent in contemporary German:
> Mädchen (girl), Märchen (fairy tale), Frettchen (ferret), Kaninchen (rabbit), Eichhörnchen (squirrel, folk etymology from French écureuil), Ohrläppchen (earlobe).
> Also Italian zucca (pumpkin) - zucchino (squash) (same Greek kolokíthi - kolokitháki).
> Hartmut Haberland
> 
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: Discussion List for ALT [mailto:LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] På vegne af Nigel Vincent
> Sendt: 4. marts 2013 15:24
> Til: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
> Emne: Re: Reduplication OR pure diminutives
> 
> Something else about Italian which shows that, as Giorgio suggests, the exact value can vary with each item is the way in Italian some of the diminutives have become independent lexical items - e.g. pane 'bread' vs panino 'bread roll' or with adjectives: caro 'dear (in both senses') and carino 'pretty'. Once lexicalised they can go off further in their own directions: e.g. casa 'house' vs casino 'brothel' (originally a house for a private gathering - which I suppose in a way a brothel still is!).
> It would be interesting to know if there is a similar lexicalisation effect with the reduplicative type.
> Nigel
> 
> Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA
> Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics The University of Manchester
> 
> Vice-President for Research & HE Policy, The British Academy
> 
> Linguistics & English Language
> School of Arts, Languages and Cultures
> The University of Manchester
> Manchester M13 9PL
> UK
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.llc.manchester.ac.uk/subjects/lel/staff/nigel-vincent/
> 
> ________________________________________
> From: Discussion List for ALT [LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG]
> Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 2:01 PM
> To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Reduplication OR pure diminutives
> 
> Dear colleagues,
> 
> Incidentally, the stol-ik 'small table' example is found also in Italian:
> 
> tavolo > tavol-ino 'small table'
> 
> Which refers only to size. Thus, as Francesca suggests, the exact connotation of diminutives may actually depend on the specific item involved.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Giorgio F. Arcodia
> 
> --
> Dr. Giorgio Francesco Arcodia
> Università degli Studi di Milano-Bicocca Dipartimento di Scienze Umane per la Formazione Edificio U6 - stanza 4101 Piazza dell'Ateneo Nuovo, 1
> 20126 Milano
> 
> Tel.: (+39) 02 6448 4946
> Fax: (+39) 02 6448 4863
> E-mail: giorgio.arcodia at unimib.it
> 
> 
> On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:19:40 +0100
> Francesca Di Garbo <francescadigarbo at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>> Dear Hannu,
>> Thanks a lot for your clarification to my message. I actually didn't
>> mean to interpret Östen's example as if the Russian diminutive marker
>> encodes only small size in all its occurrences. I only meant to say
>> that it is cross-linguistically common for diminutive markers to encode
>> only size with certain nouns (as in the example quoted by Östen for
>> Russian). It seems to me that this may depend on the meaning of the
>> noun to which the diminutive marker is attached, on the context of
>> occurrence, and on the presence of other diminutive markers in a
>> language. I hope this sounds less ambiguous now.
>> Thanks again and best wishes,
>> 
>> Francesca
>> 
>> 
>> On 2013-03-04 13:38, Hannu Tommola wrote:
>>> Dear Francesca and all,
>>> 
>>>> However, as Östen's example suggests, it happens that the use of a
>>>> diminutive marker gets restricted to the encoding of size variation
>>>> only.
>>> 
>>> I am afraid Östen didn't want to say that the diminutive _marker_ in
>>> Russian is restricted to refer only to size.
>>> He said "in Russian there are diminutives that seem fairly free of
>>> evaluative or expressive meaning", and his example _stol-ik_ 'small
>>> table' does not prove that the marker with other words refers to size.
>>> 
>>> Russ. _chashe-chka kofe/chaja/u_ doesn't necessarily refer to a small
>>> cup but simply to 'a nice cup of coffee/tea'; an even more clear
>>> example without any hint to small size is _kon'ja-chok_ 'cognac' or
>>> any other uncountable noun.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Hannu
>>> 
>>> Quoting Francesca Di Garbo <francescadigarbo at gmail.com>:
>>> 
>>>> Dear Scott and dear All,
>>>> 
>>>> As far as we now, the most common source of diminutive affixes
>>>> crosslinguistically is the noun for "child"
>>>> (Jurafsky 1996). This usually starts being used as a sort of
>>>> classificatory noun to refer to the young age of animate entities and
>>>> gets gradually extended to inanimate nouns where it marks small size
>>>> with countable nouns and small quantity with uncountable.
>>>> Interestingly, there is no evidence for affixal diminutives to derive
>>>> from modifiers meaning "small'. On the other hand, the diachronic
>>>> development of diminutive reduplication is very difficult to pin
>>>> down, considering its intertwinment with other grammatical functions
>>>> (plurality, distributivity, attenuation etc.). It would be
>>>> interesting to investigate if the notion of /fragmentation /used by
>>>> Alex to make sense of the polysemy of reduplication in Mwotlap is
>>>> also applicable on the diachronic level. Also, it would be
>>>> interesting to see how common reduplicative patterns for diminutive
>>>> marking are across other Creoles (which I don't have any clue about).
>>>> 
>>>> As for the second point under discussion (whether on not diminutives
>>>> can express only size):
>>>> Synchronically, diminutives express evaluation of quantity (SMALL)
>>>> and quality (BAD or GOOD) and, as Paul points out, the two components
>>>> are not easy to tell apart when analysing the semantics of a
>>>> diminutive affix.
>>>> However, as Östen's example suggests, it happens that the use of a
>>>> diminutive marker gets restricted to the encoding of size variation
>>>> only. I have the impression that this is very likely to happen in
>>>> languages with several different diminutive (and possibly
>>>> augmentative) affixes, where the different markers show different
>>>> distributional properties in terms of the meanings encoded. The Bantu
>>>> languages are an excellent illustration in this respect as the
>>>> examples from Yeyi show. Bantu languages (and other Niger-Congo
>>>> languages with rich noun class systems as the Atlantic languages)
>>>> often have several noun classes which are used to encode evaluative
>>>> (diminutive and augmentative) meanings.
>>>> Interestingly, besides the range of uses pointed out by Frank with
>>>> respect to Yeyi, different diminutive classes in one language may
>>>> specialize in the encoding of different size nuances (small vs. tiny)
>>>> as in the example below from Lega, where class 12 expresses small
>>>> size and class 19 tiny size: 
> 

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