[Lingtyp] query: 'give' and 'do'/'make'
giorgio.arcodia at unimib.it
giorgio.arcodia at unimib.it
Wed Feb 18 10:47:07 UTC 2015
If I may chime in, the use of 'davaj' (da-vaj
give.IMPF-IMP.2SG) in Russian is pretty close to the use
of 'dài' / 'dai' (da-i give-IMP.2SG) in Italian.
In Italian, it is (to me) an all-purpose exhortative form,
which could be 'do', but also 'hurry up', 'cut it out',
etc.
Giorgio F. A.
--
Dr. Giorgio Francesco Arcodia
Università degli Studi di Milano-Bicocca
Dipartimento di Scienze Umane per la Formazione
Edificio U6 - stanza 4101
Piazza dell'Ateneo Nuovo, 1
20126 Milano
Tel.: (+39) 02 6448 4946(+39) 02 6448 4946
Fax: (+39) 02 6448 4863
E-mail: giorgio.arcodia at unimib.it
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:34:57 +0900
David Gil <gil at eva.mpg.de> wrote:
> Marcel,
>
> The Hebrew verb "n-t-n" ('give') is grammaticalized (as
>in your example) as a permissive, a path of
>grammaticalization that is quite common
>cross-linguistically. But it doesn't mean 'do', or
>'make' (except to the extent that English "make" can be
>used as a causative, which is somewhat akin to the
>permissive).
>
> Also, to the best of my (limited) knowledge of Russian,
>the idiomatic use of "davaj" does not mean 'do' or
>'make'.
>
> David
>
>
> On 18/02/2015 16:16, Marcel Erdal wrote:
>> How about Modern Hebrew
>> Ten li liftor et ha-baaya
>> 'Let me solve the problem',
>> lit. ' Give me to-solve ACC the-problem'
>> and Russian davaj 'come on', lit. Give!'?
>> Marcel
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 18.02.2015, at 05:11, David Gil <gil at eva.mpg.de
>><mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to Suzanne Kemmer and Foong Ha Yap for pointing
>>>out the 'give'-causative connection. Not exactly
>>>'give'-'make' identity, but since 'make' also often
>>>grammaticalizes as a causative, the two words can often
>>>end up in "the same place", as it were. In fact, this
>>>can even happen within the same language, as in eastern
>>>dialects of Malay, where 'kasi' ("give") and 'bikin'
>>>("do"/"make") are both used to form periphrastic
>>>causatives — see for example the recent PhD dissertation
>>>by Betty Littamahuputty on Ternate Malay.
>>>
>>> Thanks also to Ludwig Paul for providing the first
>>>robust case of 'give'-'do'/'make' identity from a
>>>contemporary language from outside the Mekong-Mamberamo
>>>(Southeast Asia to New Guinea) region, namely East
>>>Iranian Pashto.
>>>
>>> Which brings me to a little puzzle, namely that a high
>>>proportion of examples that have been offered so far for
>>>'give'-'do'/'make' identity come from extinct literary
>>>languages: Classical Chinese, Old and Middle Persian,
>>>and Early Middle English — I wonder whether this is a
>>>coincidence.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 17/02/2015 20:25, Suzanne Kemmer wrote:
>>>> Words meaning ‘give’ can be a lexical source for
>>>>causative auxiliary or verb, e.g. Luo miyo (so that, for
>>>>example, I make it fall would be literally it I-give-it
>>>>it-fall )--Sorry I don’t have a real example to hand. I
>>>>believe cognates of miyo ‘give’ are also used as
>>>>causative verb in other Nilo-Saharan languages.
>>>>
>>>> This is not exactly what you’re looking for because in
>>>>Luo the word doesn’t mean ‘make’ in the sense of
>>>>'create’. Analytic causatives are not often based on
>>>>words meaning ‘make’ ; English is kind of exceptional in
>>>>that regard.
>>>>
>>>> Still I think the connection between ‘give’ and
>>>>causative constructions is worth keeping in mind, since
>>>>conceptual connections attested in grammaticalization
>>>>paths can also be borrowed/spread areally.
>>>>
>>>> References: the connection of ‘give’ with causative
>>>>constructions is mentioned in Kemmer and Verhagen 1994,
>>>>The grammar of causatives and the conceptual structure of
>>>>events (Cognitive Linguistics 5).
>>>> Also Heine and Kuteva 2002, World Lexicon of
>>>>Grammaticalization, list ‘give’ —> causative marker as
>>>>a recurrent grammaticalization path with examples from
>>>>(as I recall) Southeast Asia.
>>>>
>>>> Suzanne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:58 PM, David Gil <gil at eva.mpg.de
>>>>><mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks to all of you who responded to my query
>>>>>(reproduced below), either personally to me or to the
>>>>>LINGTYP list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many of the examples came, rather surprisingly to me,
>>>>>from familiar languages, such as the English "Do me a
>>>>>hamburger" (meaning "Give me a hamburger") and "Give a
>>>>>sigh" (meaning "Make a sigh") (the latter from a personal
>>>>>message from John Haiman).
>>>>>
>>>>> While these examples suggest that the 'give'-'do'/'make'
>>>>>connection is indeed cognitively "natural", they would
>>>>>appear to differ from the cases I'm working on.
>>>>>Specifically, whereas in English and other such
>>>>>languages, the primary way of saying 'give' and
>>>>>'do'/'make' is by means of different words that would be
>>>>>listed as distinct lexical items in any dictionary, in
>>>>>languages such as Roon, Meyah, etc., there are no
>>>>>distinct words for 'give' and 'do'/'make' (at least not
>>>>>in the everyday lexicon), hence dictionaries of these
>>>>>languages would list 'give' and 'do'/'make' as primary
>>>>>meanings for the same word.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus, on the basis of the English-like usages, I would
>>>>>now rephrase my query, and ask for languages in which the
>>>>>same or related form has both 'give' and 'do'/'make' as
>>>>>BASIC meanings, of the kind that would be listed in a
>>>>>dictionary. From the responses that I have received so
>>>>>far, my impression (but please let me know if I've
>>>>>misinterpreted anything) is that the following languages
>>>>>fit the bill: Classical Chinese (thanks to Randy LaPolla
>>>>>and Giorgio Arcodia), the Angan ("Papuan") language Menya
>>>>>(thanks to Carl Whitehead) and two Timor-Alor-Pantar
>>>>>("Papuan") languages, Makalero and Makasae (thanks to
>>>>>Juliette Huber). But more examples would be greatly
>>>>>appreciated!
>>>>>
>>>>> In particular, I find the Chinese-Papuan connection
>>>>>tantalizing, as I have just completed a long paper
>>>>>arguing for a Mekong-Mamberamo linguistic area extending
>>>>>from Southeast Asia to Western New Guinea. But I would
>>>>>need much more data in order to see if there is any
>>>>>connection between 'give'-'do'/'make' identity and the
>>>>>Mekong-Mamberamo area. (Of course, such a connection
>>>>>would be a very weak one at best, given the predominance
>>>>>of languages without 'give'-'do'/'make' identity even
>>>>>within the area in question).
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, many thanks, and I look forward to more data!
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 16/02/2015 15:14, David Gil wrote:
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anybody know of languages in which 'give' and
>>>>>>'do'/'make' are expressed with the same or related words?
>>>>>> Or of cases in which forms expressing one of these two
>>>>>>meanings are historically derived from forms expressing
>>>>>>the other meaning?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Further details:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My interest in this question stems from current field
>>>>>>work on Roon (South Halmahera West New Guinea,
>>>>>>Austronesian). In Roon there is a single form /be/
>>>>>>expressing both 'give' and 'do'/'make'. (In fact, the
>>>>>>same form /be /is associated with a wide range of
>>>>>>grammatical and semantic functions, most or all of which
>>>>>>seem to be derivable diachronically and possibly also
>>>>>>synchronically from either 'give' or 'do'/'make'.) A
>>>>>>cognate form /be /meaning both 'give' and 'do'/'make' is
>>>>>>also present in closely related Biak and Dusner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Identical words for 'give' and 'do'/'make' (but
>>>>>>unrelated to /be/) also occur in at least two nearby
>>>>>>non-Austronesian languages, Meyah and Hatam, and in the
>>>>>>geographically proximate Austronesian language Wooi.
>>>>>> However, I have not yet been able to find any other
>>>>>>examples of 'give'-'do'/'make' identity in other
>>>>>>languages of the region, Austronesian or otherwise.
>>>>>> Thus, 'give'-'do'/'make' identity seems to be an areal
>>>>>>characteristic of a small region of the eastern Bird's
>>>>>>Head and western Cenderawasih Bay, in which it presumably
>>>>>>spread from the original non-Austronesian to the
>>>>>>intrusive Austronesian languages, through metatypy,
>>>>>>relexification, or some such process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In order to gauge the significance of 'give'-'do'/'make'
>>>>>>identity as a diagnostic feature of language contact, I
>>>>>>am thus interested in getting a feel for how widespread
>>>>>>this feature is across the world's languages. For what
>>>>>>it's worth, I can't think of any examples from other
>>>>>>parts of the world — can you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am also interested in any ideas you might have about
>>>>>>what the semantic basis of the connection between 'give'
>>>>>>and 'do'/'make', and possible mechanisms of semantic
>>>>>>generalization. In the Roon/Biak/Dusner case, at least,
>>>>>>the form /be/ is clearly cognate with the
>>>>>>proto-Malayo-Polynesian word for 'give', suggesting that
>>>>>>the direction of semantic spread was from 'give' to
>>>>>>'do'/'make'. But I have no information on the other
>>>>>>known cases (Meyah, Hatam, Wooi).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> David Gil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>>>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>>>>>> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
>>>>>> Email:gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
>>>>>> Webpage:http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
>>>>>> <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> David Gil
>>>>>
>>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>>>>> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
>>>>>
>>>>> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
>>>>> Email:gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
>>>>> Webpage:http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
>>>>> <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>>>><mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Gil
>>>
>>> Department of Linguistics
>>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>>> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
>>>
>>> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
>>> Email:gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
>>> Webpage:http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
>>> <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>><mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
> --
> David Gil
>
> Department of Linguistics
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
>
> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> Email: gil at eva.mpg.de
> Webpage: http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
>
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