[Lingtyp] Quotations of speech vs. quotations of thoughts

Sat Jan 6 20:43:04 UTC 2018

Dear Ian & Timur,

thank you very much for your examples! 

Concerning the Cantonese examples with a speech verb following a clause with a specific speech verb (‘complain’) or a mental verb (’think’), one can find the similar case also in colloquial Hungarian, forming what Güldemann (2012: 120) calls 'a biclausal bipartite QI’ of a type “then Peter tells him, he says”-construction:

...mondta	az	egyik	riporterünk,	az	egyik	körkapcsoláson,
say.prs.3sg.def	def	one of	reporter.1pl	def	one.of	circular.supe
Zalaegerszeg-MTK	találkozón,	aszongya:	“Kedves	hallgatóink,	a	két
pn-pn	meeting.supe	qi	dear	listener.pl.1pl	def	2
MTK-játékos	egymást	zavarta	a	kapu	elrúgásában”.
MTK-players	one another.acc	trouble.pst.3sg.def	def	gate	kicking.3sg.ine
‘One of our reporters, during one of the circular games, in the meeting between Zalaegerszeg and MTK, said: “Dear listeners, 2 MTK players impede each other while kicking at the gate”’ (weebly.com).

where aszongya is a particalized merge of the demonstrative azt ‘dem.acc’ and the generic speech verb mondja ‘say.prs.3sg.def’ (sorry for the lack of the alignment between the lines in the example). 

Best wishes, 
Denys 

> On 6 Jan 2018, at 21:38, JOO Ian <il.y.en.a at outlook.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Timur,
> 
> A similar case happens in Cantonese as well. Please see below.
> 
> Matthews, Stephen, and Virginia Yip. Cantonese: a comprehensive grammar. Routledge, 2013.
> 
> <Screenshot_20180107-033525.png>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ian Joo
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Timur Maisak <timur.maisak at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 7, 2018 3:32:56 AM
> Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Quotations of speech vs. quotations of thoughts
>  
> Dear Denys,
> to add one more example, in Agul (Lezgic, Nakh-Daghestanian), the main speech verb 'say' in reported speech constructions sometimes introduces thoughts, not speech (see ex. 20 here: https://www.academia.edu/3007166/ <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F3007166%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C698b5a43d2424a2f605608d5553c7465%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636508640499267573&sdata=EAbMWGbz7Rv%2BodhQrf%2FbozB6BuHo%2Byqk85Z9Iexm9WM%3D&reserved=0>). 
> This is not found frequently, and there are dedicated verbs of thinking (complex verbs "thought + do"). These verbs of thinking do not introduce speech, as far as I know.
> 
> Best,
> Timur
> 
> 2018-01-06 22:23 GMT+03:00 JOO Ian <il.y.en.a at outlook.com <mailto:il.y.en.a at outlook.com>>:
> Dear Stef,
> 
> Your thought that "explicitly marked reported thought (e.g. with a matrix verb commonly meaning 'think') is not interpreted as reported speech" is interesting, but wouldn't it be possible, on pragmatic grounds, for a verb meaning 'to think' to refer to an actual utterance? For example:
> 
> "Donald Trump thinks that he should be elected again."
> 
> could refer to Trump's actual utterance "I should be elected again".
> 
> But I'm not sure if this is a valid counterexample, I would like to know what others think.
> 
> Ian Joo
> http://ianjoo.academia.edu <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fianjoo.academia.edu&data=02%7C01%7C%7C698b5a43d2424a2f605608d5553c7465%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636508640499267573&sdata=Kj6lCMnn3gKJJY8sTXScEIgmxj30US0L1%2Bso5bp%2BUZw%3D&reserved=0>
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of Spronck, Stef <stef.spronck at helsinki.fi <mailto:stef.spronck at helsinki.fi>>
> Sent: Sunday, January 7, 2018 2:49:16 AM
> 
> To: Denys T.
> Cc: Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Quotations of speech vs. quotations of thoughts
>  
> Hi Denys,
> 
> At the risk of simply restating the two previous responses: I think that given the polyfunctionality and high frequency of quotative indexes not derived from verbs of speech crosslinguistically (as Ekkehard points out), we should be careful to gloss a quotative index as 'say', rather than give it a more generic gloss, unless there is construction-independent evidence for a 'say' meaning of the lexeme (a point Bill McGregor also makes in a recent book chapter about quotative indexes in several Australian Aboriginal languages: McGregor, W. B. In: Robering, K. (Ed.) The 'say, do' verb in Nyulnyul, Warrwa, and other Nyulnylan languages is monosemic Events, Arguments and Aspects: Topics in the Semantics of Verbs, Amsterdam/Philadelphia: John Benjamins, 2014, 301-327 (would be happy to send you a scanned copy off-list)).
> 
> That said (!), all descriptions about the polyfunctionality of reported speech constructions/quotative indexes I have seen replicate David's observation about colloquial Indonesian: reported speech constructions may also be interpreted as reported thought, but explicitly marked reported thought (e.g. with a matrix verb commonly meaning 'think') is not interpreted as reported speech. If anyone has a counterexample to this observation I would be very interested!  
> 
> Best,
> Stef
> 
> 
> Stef Spronck
> Postdoctoral researcher at the University of Helsinki (HU Humanities Programme)
> 
> Section editor <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.degruyteropen.com%2Fpeople%2Fstef-spronck%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd79c4186ce1c4ec0581e08d55536486d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636508613983202428&sdata=Raf%2BsCaqCLE%2FTxtz%2F4Z80hoD8QxyDhCeBHFpkKwnUgk%3D&reserved=0> Linguistic Typology and Pragmatics at Open Linguistics <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.degruyter.com%2Fview%2Fj%2Fopli&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd79c4186ce1c4ec0581e08d55536486d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636508613983202428&sdata=q6zSDmfBvg6%2BCVhY3omvcGplPffp6FyktOnm9%2BG9LDU%3D&reserved=0>
> https://participationgrammar.net <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fparticipationgrammar.net&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd79c4186ce1c4ec0581e08d55536486d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636508613983202428&sdata=SS6w80cKZy4FP8Lbk29EDgVRuuTldDE8M7VldaBRbC4%3D&reserved=0>
> 
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of "Ekkehard König" <koenig at zedat.fu-berlin.de <mailto:koenig at zedat.fu-berlin.de>>
> Sent: Saturday, 6 January 2018 7:27:11 PM
> To: Denys T.
> Cc: Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Quotations of speech vs. quotations of thoughts
>  
> Dear Denys,
> 
> even if this is not exactly the information you were hoping to get, it may
> still be of interest to you:
> 
> - in a wide variety of Indo-European languages quotative markers derive
> from deomonstratives of manner, typically from the exophoric use (German
> so; French ainsi, etc.) in combination with verbs of saying or without.
> (cf. pp. 159 of the article attached)
> 
> (i)"Bla, bla bla", so die Kanzlerin,...
> 
> - as is shown in Güldemann (2008) - also quoted in my article - in many
> African languages manner demonstratives and non-deictic expressions of
> manner provide the main source of quotative markers and in many cases such
> expressions of manner have been reanalysed as verbs of saying [rather than
> the other way round].
> 
> - similar sources of quotative markers can be observed in languages from
> other areas, e.g. in Japanese.
> 
> Another example from my own language comes to mind: like Dutch (betekenis
> - bedoeling), but in contrast to English, German draws a distinction
> between sentence/word meaning (bedeuten) and speaker/utterance meaning
> (meinen). The latter verb can be used for both saying and thinking, at
> least in certain contexts (Karl meinte....'Karl thought/said').
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Ekkehard
> 
> -
> 
> > Dear colleagues (especially those working with quotative markers and
> > reported speech),
> >
> > in Erzya (Mordvinic, Uralic), the verb merģems with the primary meaning
> > ‘say’ is also used to quote thoughts:
> >
> > (1) Mon merģinģ, ton Saransat.
> > 1sg say.pst.1sg 2sg Saransk.ine.prs.2sg
> > ‘I thought (lit. I said), you are in Saransk’ (Aasmäe 2012: 66).
> >
> > However, out of context, the QI-clause Mon merģinģ would likely be
> > interpreted as ‘I said’ and instead of quotation of thoughts one will get
> > the quotation of speech. It is, of course, not a unique thing that one
> > quotative index (clause) can be used to mark different types of reported
> > discourse. I am wondering whether there is cross-linguistic evidence,
> > pointing that the reading ‘I/you/X said’ is prior to the reading ‘I/you/X
> > thought’ in such cases? For instance, notorious I was like to be
> > interpreted out of context as 'I said' rather than 'I thought'? Or that
> > speech verbs are frequently used to mark mental processes, but not vice
> > versa? Is there any hierarchy in the reading of quotations? Are there any
> > studies that would show that one would be prior to another? Is it even
> > reasonable to expect to find something like this? Any suggestions, hints,
> > (language-specific) examples are more than welcome!
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Have a nice evening!
> >
> > Best wishes from Tartu,
> > Denys Teptiuk_______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd79c4186ce1c4ec0581e08d55536486d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636508613983202428&sdata=STY75%2FdxZU%2FNuQFL74qKZ%2FDCkHXqXFobPHBUL%2FrWe8I%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> 
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