[Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition
Martin Haspelmath
haspelmath at shh.mpg.de
Thu Oct 18 18:50:25 UTC 2018
Thanks to Matthew Dryer and Enrique Palancar for reminding us of
applicative-like constructions where a possessor of an argument triggers
applicative-like marking on a verb.
So the range of possibilities is indeed broader than has been discussed
so far. But is this a "problem"?
On 18.10.18 04:57, Dryer, Matthew wrote:
>
> But the general possibility of something being P-like in some respects
> and not P-like in other respects is quite common, so that the very
> notion of P-like is problematic, so any definition based on that
> notion is problematic.
>
If we say that a construction is an applicative iff the new object is
"P-like in coding" (= P-like in flagging and indexing), then there is no
problem. Recall that P is defined by its coding properties, not by
anything else.
True, only one of the two Walman patterns mentioned by Matthew would
then fall under the concept "applicative", while we don't have a term
for the other one yet (the pattern where the adpossessor keeps its
genitive marking), but we could create one (e.g. "adpossessative"?).
In fact, however, it seems that such a typological concept already
exists: "prominent internal possessor" (PIP), as discussed at this 2016
conference at SOAS London:
https://www.soas.ac.uk/linguistics/prominent-possessors/workshop/ (and
in a forthcoming book with papers from this conference). So a more
transparent term might then be "PIP objectative".
In general, I think that comparative concepts are never "problematic"
(though they are sometimes not clearly defined; and not everyone is
always happy with the matching of a label with a concept). Of course, it
may seem unnatural from a Walman perspective to treat the two
constructions differently in typology, but typology cannot respect
language-particular "naturalness" (it follows its own agenda).
Best,
Martin
On 18.10.18 04:57, Dryer, Matthew wrote:
>
> I think the range of possibilities attested is broader than Martin's
> typology.
>
> In the following sentence from Walman (Papua New Guinea), there is an
> applicative suffix on the verb, here coding external possession:
>
> Kipin
>
>
>
> k-ol-ro-y
>
>
>
> psuem
>
>
>
> ein
>
>
>
> w-ri
>
>
>
> nyanam.
>
> 1pl
>
>
>
> 1pl-cut-applic-3pl
>
>
>
> navel
>
>
>
> trunk
>
>
>
> gen-3pl
>
>
>
> child
>
> 'We cut the umbilical cords of the children.' (where 'navel' + 'trunk'
> = 'umbilical cord')
>
> Just as Simon Musgrave's example (1d) has both an applicative or
> applicative-like suffix on the verb and a preposition marking the NP,
> this example from Walman has both an applicative suffix on the verb
> and the possessor is marked as a possessor with the genitive form of
> the 3pl pronoun. In other words, it is simultaneously internal and
> external possession. And like Simon Musgrave's (1c), it is equally
> possible and in fact more common in Walman to have the possessive NP
> without genitive marking, bearing the form of a P.
>
> What is different about this example, however, is that unlike Simon
> Musgrave's example, the verb exhibits 3pl object agreement (in the
> suffix -y) with the possessor, making it more clearly simultaneous
> external and internal possession. This doesn't seem to fit Martin's
> typology. The genitive marking on the pronoun is similar to Martin's
> adpositive type, except that we have the genitive form of a pronoun
> rather than an adposition. More seriously, however, the fact that
> there is object marking on the verb, means that the possessor is
> P-like in that respect, though not P-like in how it is marked on the
> NP, so that it is both an applicative in Martin's sense and sort of
> adpositive.
>
> But the general possibility of something being P-like in some respects
> and not P-like in other respects is quite common, so that the very
> notion of P-like is problematic, so any definition based on that
> notion is problematic.
>
> Matthew
>
>
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of
> Martin Haspelmath <haspelmath at shh.mpg.de <mailto:haspelmath at shh.mpg.de>>
> Date: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 4:18 PM
> To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>"
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition
>
> On 17.10.18 20:52, Peter Arkadiev wrote:
>> There are languages, most notably Northwest Caucasian and Kartvelian,
>> where arguments introduced by applicatives are coded as ditransitive
>> Rs rather than as monotransitive Ps. We can certainly invent a
>> different comparative concept for this (e.g. "version", to adapt the
>> traditional Caucasological term), but the similarities between
>> "applicatives" and "versions" seem to be more important than
>> differences, so it would be better to have a common comparative
>> concept subsuming both
>
> OK, so here's a proposal: "applicative" is a construction in which a
> new P-like object is added, and "versiative" is a construction in
> which a new (indirective-)R-like object is added (inspired by Russian
> "versija", or version). They are both subtypes of a more general
> concept, perhaps called "objectative".
>
> One could also have another subtype, e.g. "adpositive", for a verbal
> marker that adds a new adpositionally marked argument. Then Simon
> Musgrave's original examples would be objectatives, both of the
> applicative and the adpositive sort.
>
> These neologisms may sound strange, but it's actually just a
> historical accident that we don't have such terms in common use. The
> fact that "applicative" is a commonly used term does not mean that
> there must be a natural cross-linguistic phenomenon that corresponds
> to the term.
>
> Best,
> Martin
>
>> --
>> Peter Arkadiev, PhD
>> Institute of Slavic Studies
>> Russian Academy of Sciences
>> Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow
>> peterarkadiev at yandex.ru
>> http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev
>> 17.10.2018, 18:07, "Martin Haspelmath" <haspelmath at shh.mpg.de>:
>>> I think the answer to Adam's question is that a construction is an
>>> applicative only if the new object is coded like the P-argument of a
>>> basic transitive construction.
>>>
>>> Thus, Simon Musgrave's example (1c) from Taba (based on Bowden 2001)
>>> is an (instrumental) applicative:
>>>
>>> npun-ak kolay peda
>>> kill-APPL snake machete
>>>
>>> But when the instrument 'machete' has its instrumental preposition
>>> (ada peda 'with a machete'), it is not an applicative, from a
>>> typological perspective (= as a comparative concept).
>>>
>>> There is no "official" definition of the (typological) term
>>> "applicative", of course, but it is my understanding that most
>>> people use the term in this way. The Wikipedia article reflects this
>>> by speaking about promotion to "(core) object":
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice>.
>>>
>>> (Maria Polinsky's WALS article is vague and speaks just about
>>> "increasing the number of object arguments by one", without making
>>> precise what is meant by "object", https://wals.info/chapter/109.
>>> But her examples and the discussion make it clear that she means
>>> objects coded like P-arguments.)
>>>
>>> This does not mean, of course, that the description of Taba should
>>> not use the term "Applicative" for the suffix -ak in all cases --
>>> but this would be a language-specific descriptive category, somewhat
>>> like Dative is used in Russian-type languages also when the case in
>>> question is not used in its definitional function (recipient of 'give').
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> On 17.10.18 16:45, Adam James Ross Tallman wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>> I know of some phenomena that is similar to this (I think) in
>>>> Chácobo and other languages. But I have a question about
>>>> terminology here. Why is it still an applicative if a (n oblique?)
>>>> postposition is marked on the "promoted" argument? What are the
>>>> criteria that identify it as "promoted" in this case
>>>> (non-repeatability, position in clause etc...). Or is there some
>>>> type of semantic criterion at work here?
>>>> best,
>>>> Adam
>>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:36 AM Françoise Rose
>>> <francoise.rose at univ-lyon2.fr <mailto:francoise.rose at univ-lyon2.fr>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Simon,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your query, it's very interesting.
>>>
>>> I just gave a talk at SWL8 on an applicative construction of
>>> Mojeño that is correlated with the presence of verbal
>>> classifiers that refer to a location. When such a verbal
>>> classifier is present, the "coreferential" NP can be expressed
>>> as an object rather than an oblique (i.e. it loses its
>>> preposition, as in the second example below). Interestingly,
>>> there is some variation. The preposition can be maintained in
>>> the locative phrase, even when the verbal classifier is present,
>>> but there is then no valency change (so the construction does
>>> not count as an applicative). Intransitive verbs take a 3rd
>>> person subject t-prefix, while transitive verbs take some
>>> semantically more specific prefixes for 3rd person when the
>>> object is third person also (as in the second example). So this
>>> case is not exactly what you were looking for, but the presence
>>> of three alternates here is interesting: the construction of
>>> example 3 could well be an intermediate step in the development
>>> of the applicative effect of classifiers.
>>>
>>> t-junopo=po
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *te*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> smeno
>>>
>>> 3-run=pfv
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *prep*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> art.nh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> woods
>>>
>>> 'S/he ran *to/in/from* the woods.'
>>>
>>> ñi-jumpo*-je*-cho
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> smeno
>>>
>>> 3m-run*-clf:interior*-act
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> art.nh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> woods
>>>
>>> S/he runs *inside* the woods.
>>>
>>> t-jumpo*-je*-cho
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *te*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> smeno
>>>
>>> 3-run*-clf:interior*-act
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *prep*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> art.nh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> woods
>>>
>>> S/he ran inside the woods.
>>>
>>> The slides from my presentation can be downloaded from SWL8 website.
>>>
>>> Very best,
>>>
>>> Françoise ROSE
>>>
>>> Directrice de Recherches 2ème classe, CNRS
>>>
>>> Laboratoire Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)
>>>
>>> 16 avenue Berthelot
>>>
>>> 69007 Lyon
>>>
>>> FRANCE
>>>
>>> (33)4 72 72 64 63
>>>
>>> www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE <http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE>
>>>
>>> *De :*Lingtyp [mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>] *De la part
>>> de* Simon Musgrave
>>> *Envoyé :* mercredi 17 octobre 2018 07:16
>>> *À :* LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> <mailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>> *Objet :* [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition
>>>
>>> Dear Lingtyp members,
>>>
>>>
>>> I am posting this query on behalf of one of my PhD students. We
>>> will post a summary of responses in due course.
>>>
>>> From existing studies of applicatives, only two Austronesian
>>> languages, Taba and Indonesian, have been documented to
>>> unexpectedly retain a preposition when an applicative affix is
>>> used to promote a previously non-core object to core.
>>> Bowden, in his grammatical description of Taba (2001), states
>>> that it is possible for the same idea to be expressed using
>>> three possibilities. Firstly, that the third entity is
>>> introduced by a preposition, secondly that the applied object is
>>> marked by an applicative morpheme and thirdly that the applied
>>> object can be marked by an applicative morpheme and preposition,
>>> as the following examples show.
>>>
>>> (1)a. Ahmad npun kolay
>>> Ahmad 3SG=kill snake
>>> 'Ahmad killed a snake.'
>>>
>>> b. Ahmad npun kolay ada peda PREPOSITION
>>> Ahmad 3SG=kill snake with machete
>>> 'Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.'
>>>
>>> c. Ahmad npunak kolay peda APPLICATIVE
>>> Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake machete
>>> 'Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.'
>>>
>>> d. Ahmad npunak kolay ada peda BOTH
>>> Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake with machete
>>> 'Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.' (2001:204)
>>>
>>>
>>> Sometimes Indonesian clauses with applicative verbs suffixed
>>> with --kan retain the preposition directly following the verb
>>> when it is expected to have been lost according to conventional
>>> grammar rules, as shown in 2.
>>>
>>> (2)a. Yang penting saya sangat men-cinta-i Sandy
>>> REL important 1SG very meN.love.APPL Sandy
>>> dan meny-enang-kan atas semua ke-jadi-an itu
>>> meN-senang-kan
>>> and meN-pity-APPL on all event that
>>> 'What is important is that I love Sandy and regret
>>> everything that happened.' (Musgrave 2001:156)
>>>
>>> b. Kami juga sudah mem-bicara-kan dengan
>>> pem-erintah pusat
>>> 2PL also already meN-talk-APPL with
>>> government central
>>> di Jakarta soal rencana men-ambah beasiswa
>>> Jerman
>>> in Jakarta matter plan meN-increase
>>> scholarship German
>>> untuk Indonesia...
>>> for Indonesia
>>> 'We have also spoken with the central government in Jakarta
>>> about the plan to increase German scholarships to Indonesia.'
>>> (Quasthoff & Gottwald 2012: indmix_565272)
>>>
>>>
>>> Previous studies of Indonesian have noted the co-occurrence of
>>> applicatives and prepositions and have usually made passing
>>> comments often speculating that this feature is prevalent in
>>> non-standard Indonesian.
>>>
>>> Our query is whether any list subscribers know of other
>>> languages which show this phenomenon and has anyone written
>>> about it?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for any information which you can share!
>>>
>>> Best, Simon
>>>
>>>
>>> References
>>> Bowden, John. 2001. Taba: Description of a South Halmahera
>>> language. Canberra: Pacific Linguistics.
>>> Musgrave, Simon. 2001. Non-subject arguments in Indonesian. The
>>> University of Melbourne. (PhD thesis).
>>> Quasthoff, Uwe & Sebastian Gottwald. 2012. Leipzig corpus
>>> collection. (Ed.) Uwe Quasthoff & Gerhard Heyer. University of
>>> Leipzig. http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/
>>> <http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/>.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Simon Musgrave *
>>>
>>> Lecturer
>>>
>>> *School of Languages, Literatures, Cultures and Linguistics*
>>>
>>> Monash University
>>>
>>> VIC 3800
>>>
>>> Australia
>>>
>>> T: +61 3 9905 8234
>>>
>>> E: simon.musgrave at monash.edu <mailto:name.surname at monash.edu>
>>>
>>> monash.edu <http://monash.edu/>
>>>
>>> Secretary, Australasian Association for the Digital Humanities
>>> (aaDH <http://aa-dh.org/>)
>>>
>>>
>>> Official page <http://profiles.arts.monash.edu.au/simon-musgrave/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>
>>> --
>>> Adam J.R. Tallman
>>> Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz
>>> PhD, UT Austin
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>> --
>> Martin Haspelmath (haspelmath at shh.mpg.de <mailto:haspelmath at shh.mpg.de>)
>> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
>> Kahlaische Strasse 10
>> D-07745 Jena
>> &
>> Leipzig University
>> Institut fuer Anglistik
>> IPF 141199
>> D-04081 Leipzig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ,
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>
> --
> Martin Haspelmath (haspelmath at shh.mpg.de)
> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
> Kahlaische Strasse 10
> D-07745 Jena
> &
> Leipzig University
> Institut fuer Anglistik
> IPF 141199
> D-04081 Leipzig
>
>
>
>
>
--
Martin Haspelmath (haspelmath at shh.mpg.de)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
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