[Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition
Martin Haspelmath
haspelmath at shh.mpg.de
Fri Oct 19 09:26:01 UTC 2018
Yes, transparent terms are ideal, but I think it's even more important
to have terms that mean what they always meant. Changing the meaning of
a term just because one realizes that the phenomena are richer is not a
good idea, because it introduces polysemy (and thus leads to confusion).
There is no standard nomenclature in our discipline, so for most people,
most traditional terms have narrow meanings that are determined by
stereotypes. These stereotypes are typically determined by a few
well-known languages that come up in textbooks again and again.
For example, "serial verb construction" (SVC), "incorporation", "labile
verb", and "passive" are other well-known terms for phenomena that cover
only parts of larger domains. SVCs have no linker between verbs but are
closely related to other multi-verb construction types that have such a
linker but otherwise SVC-like. What should we do? Extend the meaning of
"SVC" beyond the stereotype and start talking about "unlinked SVCs" and
"linked SVCs"?
My feeling is that if a well-known term has no clear definition but many
people use the term assuming that there is a definition (as happens all
the time in linguistics), it is best to give it a narrow definition and
introduce a new term for the larger domain.
Best,
Martin
On 19.10.18 10:51, Peter Arkadiev wrote:
> Thank you, Matthew, this is an excellent point and a very useful
> typology, which, I hope, will be taken up. What we often need are
> rather a general label for a broader class of phenomena and derived
> sub-labels identifying particular subtypes based on a particular
> property, rather than opaque and unrelated terms for everyting.
> Best,
> Peter
> --
> Peter Arkadiev, PhD
> Institute of Slavic Studies
> Russian Academy of Sciences
> Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow
> peterarkadiev at yandex.ru
> http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev
> 19.10.2018, 06:13, "Dryer, Matthew" <dryer at buffalo.edu>:
>>
>> Setting aside the issues that I raised in my previous email about the
>> fact that something can be P-like in some respects but not in others,
>> there is a separate issue regarding different types of applicatives.
>> Martin’s proposed terminology whereby ‘"applicative" is a
>> construction in which a new P-like object is added, and "versiative"
>> is a construction in which a new (indirective-)R-like object is
>> added’, a problem arises with the fact that in many languages P’s and
>> R’s are treated the same way and in such languages, there is often an
>> applicative that adds an argument that is thus simultaneously P-like
>> and R-like. Fortunately this is easily fixed, but it is useful to
>> look at the logical space of possible applicatives and have labels
>> for each. Whether all of these are attested is not clear. So here is
>> a list of possible types:
>>
>> A PR-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s and R’s
>> are treated the same way (and differently from T’s) and the added
>> argument is treated like P’s and R’s.
>>
>> A PT-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s and T’s
>> are treated the same way (and differently from R’s) and the added
>> argument is treated like P’s and T’s.
>>
>> An R-applicative is an applicative in a language in which R’s are
>> treated differently from P’s and T’s and the added argument is
>> treated like an R.
>>
>> A T-applicative is an applicative in a language in which T’s are
>> treated differently from P’s and R’s and the added argument is
>> treated like a T.
>>
>> The four possibilities above all appear to be attested but two other
>> logical possibilities are
>>
>> A P-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s are
>> treated differently from both R’s and T’s and the added argument is
>> treated like a P.
>>
>> A PTR-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s, T’s
>> and R’s are treated the same way and the added argument is treated
>> like them.
>>
>> Martin’s proposed terminology would not treat R-applicatives as
>> applicatives. The problem is that there are various perhaps even many
>> languages with T-applicatives and these have always been called
>> applicatives. It would be very strange to treat T-applicatives but
>> not R-applicatives as applicatives when they are analogous to each
>> other and to treat neither as applicatives would be proposing a new
>> use of the term that would only be confusing.
>>
>> And although I think that it is a mistake to dwell too much on
>> terminological issues, I would suggest that one of the basic
>> principles in proposing new terminology is that it be as transparent
>> as possible. My term “R-applicative” is transparent, at least when
>> seen in contrast with the other types, while I find Martin’s proposed
>> “versiative” rather opaque.
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of
>> Martin Haspelmath <haspelmath at shh.mpg.de <mailto:haspelmath at shh.mpg.de>>
>> Date: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 4:18 PM
>> To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>"
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition
>> On 17.10.18 20:52, Peter Arkadiev wrote:
>> There are languages, most notably Northwest Caucasian and Kartvelian,
>> where arguments introduced by applicatives are coded as ditransitive
>> Rs rather than as monotransitive Ps. We can certainly invent a
>> different comparative concept for this (e.g. "version", to adapt the
>> traditional Caucasological term), but the similarities between
>> "applicatives" and "versions" seem to be more important than
>> differences, so it would be better to have a common comparative
>> concept subsuming both
>> OK, so here's a proposal: "applicative" is a construction in which a
>> new P-like object is added, and "versiative" is a construction in
>> which a new (indirective-)R-like object is added (inspired by Russian
>> "versija", or version). They are both subtypes of a more general
>> concept, perhaps called "objectative".
>>
>> One could also have another subtype, e.g. "adpositive", for a verbal
>> marker that adds a new adpositionally marked argument. Then Simon
>> Musgrave's original examples would be objectatives, both of the
>> applicative and the adpositive sort.
>>
>> These neologisms may sound strange, but it's actually just a
>> historical accident that we don't have such terms in common use. The
>> fact that "applicative" is a commonly used term does not mean that
>> there must be a natural cross-linguistic phenomenon that corresponds
>> to the term.
>>
>> Best,
>> Martin
>>> --
>>> Peter Arkadiev, PhD
>>> Institute of Slavic Studies
>>> Russian Academy of Sciences
>>> Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow
>>> peterarkadiev at yandex.ru <mailto:peterarkadiev at yandex.ru>
>>> http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev
>>> 17.10.2018, 18:07, "Martin Haspelmath" <haspelmath at shh.mpg.de>
>>> <mailto:haspelmath at shh.mpg.de>:
>>>> I think the answer to Adam's question is that a construction is an
>>>> applicative only if the new object is coded like the P-argument of
>>>> a basic transitive construction.
>>>>
>>>> Thus, Simon Musgrave's example (1c) from Taba (based on Bowden
>>>> 2001) is an (instrumental) applicative:
>>>>
>>>> npun-ak kolay peda
>>>> kill-APPL snake machete
>>>>
>>>> But when the instrument 'machete' has its instrumental preposition
>>>> (ada peda 'with a machete'), it is not an applicative, from a
>>>> typological perspective (= as a comparative concept).
>>>>
>>>> There is no "official" definition of the (typological) term
>>>> "applicative", of course, but it is my understanding that most
>>>> people use the term in this way. The Wikipedia article reflects
>>>> this by speaking about promotion to "(core) object":
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice>.
>>>>
>>>> (Maria Polinsky's WALS article is vague and speaks just about
>>>> "increasing the number of object arguments by one", without making
>>>> precise what is meant by "object", https://wals.info/chapter/109.
>>>> But her examples and the discussion make it clear that she means
>>>> objects coded like P-arguments.)
>>>>
>>>> This does not mean, of course, that the description of Taba should
>>>> not use the term "Applicative" for the suffix -ak in all cases –
>>>> but this would be a language-specific descriptive category,
>>>> somewhat like Dative is used in Russian-type languages also when
>>>> the case in question is not used in its definitional function
>>>> (recipient of 'give').
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Martin
>>>>
>>>> On 17.10.18 16:45, Adam James Ross Tallman wrote:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> I know of some phenomena that is similar to this (I think) in
>>>>> Chácobo and other languages. But I have a question about
>>>>> terminology here. Why is it still an applicative if a (n oblique?)
>>>>> postposition is marked on the "promoted" argument? What are the
>>>>> criteria that identify it as "promoted" in this case
>>>>> (non-repeatability, position in clause etc...). Or is there some
>>>>> type of semantic criterion at work here?
>>>>> best,
>>>>> Adam
>>>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:36 AM Françoise Rose
>>>> <francoise.rose at univ-lyon2.fr
>>>> <mailto:francoise.rose at univ-lyon2.fr>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Simon,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your query, it’s very interesting.
>>>>
>>>> I just gave a talk at SWL8 on an applicative construction of
>>>> Mojeño that is correlated with the presence of verbal
>>>> classifiers that refer to a location. When such a verbal
>>>> classifier is present, the “coreferential” NP can be expressed
>>>> as an object rather than an oblique (i.e. it loses its
>>>> preposition, as in the second example below). Interestingly,
>>>> there is some variation. The preposition can be maintained in
>>>> the locative phrase, even when the verbal classifier is
>>>> present, but there is then no valency change (so the
>>>> construction does not count as an applicative). Intransitive
>>>> verbs take a 3rd person subject t-prefix, while transitive
>>>> verbs take some semantically more specific prefixes for 3rd
>>>> person when the object is third person also (as in the second
>>>> example). So this case is not exactly what you were looking
>>>> for, but the presence of three alternates here is interesting:
>>>> the construction of example 3 could well be an intermediate
>>>> step in the development of the applicative effect of classifiers.
>>>>
>>>> t-junopo=po
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *te*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> smeno
>>>>
>>>> 3-run=pfv
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *prep*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> art.nh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> woods
>>>>
>>>> 'S/he ran *to/in/from* the woods.'
>>>>
>>>> ñi-jumpo*-je*-cho
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> smeno
>>>>
>>>> 3m-run*-clf:interior*-act
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> art.nh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> woods
>>>>
>>>> S/he runs *inside* the woods.
>>>>
>>>> t-jumpo*-je*-cho
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *te*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> smeno
>>>>
>>>> 3-run*-clf:interior*-act
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *prep*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> art.nh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> woods
>>>>
>>>> S/he ran inside the woods.
>>>>
>>>> The slides from my presentation can be downloaded from SWL8
>>>> website.
>>>>
>>>> Very best,
>>>>
>>>> Françoise ROSE
>>>>
>>>> Directrice de Recherches 2ème classe, CNRS
>>>>
>>>> Laboratoire Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)
>>>>
>>>> 16 avenue Berthelot
>>>>
>>>> 69007 Lyon
>>>>
>>>> FRANCE
>>>>
>>>> (33)4 72 72 64 63
>>>>
>>>> www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE <http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE>
>>>>
>>>> *De :*Lingtyp [mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>>> <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>] *De la part
>>>> de* Simon Musgrave
>>>> *Envoyé :* mercredi 17 octobre 2018 07:16
>>>> *À :* LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>>> <mailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>>> *Objet :* [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition
>>>>
>>>> Dear Lingtyp members,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am posting this query on behalf of one of my PhD students. We
>>>> will post a summary of responses in due course.
>>>>
>>>> From existing studies of applicatives, only two Austronesian
>>>> languages, Taba and Indonesian, have been documented to
>>>> unexpectedly retain a preposition when an applicative affix is
>>>> used to promote a previously non-core object to core.
>>>> Bowden, in his grammatical description of Taba (2001), states
>>>> that it is possible for the same idea to be expressed using
>>>> three possibilities. Firstly, that the third entity is
>>>> introduced by a preposition, secondly that the applied object
>>>> is marked by an applicative morpheme and thirdly that the
>>>> applied object can be marked by an applicative morpheme and
>>>> preposition, as the following examples show.
>>>>
>>>> (1)a. Ahmad npun kolay
>>>> Ahmad 3SG=kill snake
>>>> ‘Ahmad killed a snake.’
>>>>
>>>> b. Ahmad npun kolay ada peda PREPOSITION
>>>> Ahmad 3SG=kill snake with machete
>>>> ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’
>>>>
>>>> c. Ahmad npunak kolay peda APPLICATIVE
>>>> Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake machete
>>>> ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’
>>>>
>>>> d. Ahmad npunak kolay ada peda BOTH
>>>> Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake with machete
>>>> ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ (2001:204)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes Indonesian clauses with applicative verbs suffixed
>>>> with –kan retain the preposition directly following the verb
>>>> when it is expected to have been lost according to conventional
>>>> grammar rules, as shown in 2.
>>>>
>>>> (2)a. Yang penting saya sangat men-cinta-i Sandy
>>>> REL important 1SG very meN.love.APPL Sandy
>>>> dan meny-enang-kan atas semua ke-jadi-an itu
>>>> meN-senang-kan
>>>> and meN-pity-APPL on all event that
>>>> ‘What is important is that I love Sandy and regret
>>>> everything that happened.’ (Musgrave 2001:156)
>>>>
>>>> b. Kami juga sudah mem-bicara-kan dengan
>>>> pem-erintah pusat
>>>> 2PL also already meN-talk-APPL with government
>>>> central
>>>> di Jakarta soal rencana men-ambah beasiswa
>>>> Jerman
>>>> in Jakarta matter plan meN-increase
>>>> scholarship German
>>>> untuk Indonesia…
>>>> for Indonesia
>>>> ‘We have also spoken with the central government in Jakarta
>>>> about the plan to increase German scholarships to Indonesia.’
>>>> (Quasthoff & Gottwald 2012: indmix_565272)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Previous studies of Indonesian have noted the co-occurrence of
>>>> applicatives and prepositions and have usually made passing
>>>> comments often speculating that this feature is prevalent in
>>>> non-standard Indonesian.
>>>>
>>>> Our query is whether any list subscribers know of other
>>>> languages which show this phenomenon and has anyone written
>>>> about it?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance for any information which you can share!
>>>>
>>>> Best, Simon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> References
>>>> Bowden, John. 2001. Taba: Description of a South Halmahera
>>>> language. Canberra: Pacific Linguistics.
>>>> Musgrave, Simon. 2001. Non-subject arguments in Indonesian. The
>>>> University of Melbourne. (PhD thesis).
>>>> Quasthoff, Uwe & Sebastian Gottwald. 2012. Leipzig corpus
>>>> collection. (Ed.) Uwe Quasthoff & Gerhard Heyer. University of
>>>> Leipzig. http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/
>>>> <http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> *Simon Musgrave *
>>>>
>>>> Lecturer
>>>>
>>>> *School of Languages, Literatures, Cultures and Linguistics*
>>>>
>>>> Monash University
>>>>
>>>> VIC 3800
>>>>
>>>> Australia
>>>>
>>>> T: +61 3 9905 8234
>>>>
>>>> E: simon.musgrave at monash.edu <mailto:name.surname at monash.edu>
>>>>
>>>> monash.edu <http://monash.edu/>
>>>>
>>>> Secretary, Australasian Association for the Digital Humanities
>>>> (aaDH <http://aa-dh.org/>)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Official page <http://profiles.arts.monash.edu.au/simon-musgrave/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>>> <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Adam J.R. Tallman
>>>> Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz
>>>> PhD, UT Austin
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>> --
>>> Martin Haspelmath (haspelmath at shh.mpg.de <mailto:haspelmath at shh.mpg.de>)
>>> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
>>> Kahlaische Strasse 10
>>> D-07745 Jena
>>> &
>>> Leipzig University
>>> Institut fuer Anglistik
>>> IPF 141199
>>> D-04081 Leipzig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ,
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>
>> --
>> Martin Haspelmath (haspelmath at shh.mpg.de <mailto:haspelmath at shh.mpg.de>)
>> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
>> Kahlaische Strasse 10
>> D-07745 Jena
>> &
>> Leipzig University
>> Institut fuer Anglistik
>> IPF 141199
>> D-04081 Leipzig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ,
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
--
Martin Haspelmath (haspelmath at shh.mpg.de)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
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