[Lingtyp] Fwd: Is written language a separate modality?

Wed Jan 2 10:59:58 UTC 2019

Dear Ian,

Follow-up on Siva's remarks: this is probably not true for native speakers
(you should ask them), but foreigners learning Chinese or Japanese as a
FL/L2 can tell you something like: "I know what this character MEANS, but I
forgot how to READ it". Which entails that they have learned it primarily
from their experience and study of the written language. To be honest, this
happens to me also with opaque phonographic orthographies. A couple of days
ago I was reading an article with the word 'allegiance' in it. I realised
that I knew what it meant (primarily from context), but I had no idea as to
how it sounded - I checked a dictionary with phonetic transctiptions. For
native speakers, this might be a rare experience, though.

Best,

Giorgio

Il giorno mer 2 gen 2019 alle ore 11:23 Siva Kalyan <
sivakalyan.princeton at gmail.com> ha scritto:

> Dear Ian,
>
> There are indeed a few such conlangs, including “Unker Non-Linear Writing
> System” (https://s.ai/nlws/) and Tapissary (http://www.tapissary.com; see
> also http://dedalvs.com/smileys/2018.html). Blissymbolics was also
> intended to be like this, but was at some level unavoidably tied to an
> English-like syntax.
>
> In the “real world”, I suspect that written Chinese in Japan may have
> functioned as a kind of “soundless language” for those who were
> sufficiently fluent in it to be able to skip the customary step of
> rearranging the characters to match Japanese word order. I certainly have
> this experience as someone who has (out of laziness) tried to learn to read
> classical Chinese without bothering to learn the pronunciations of
> characters.
>
> Siva
>
> On 2 Jan 2019, at 7:26 pm, Joo Ian <ian.joo at outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Dear David,
>
> How about if one constructed a non-phonetic written conlang (that is, a
> conlang that does not use any phonetic letters, but rather soundless
> symbols)? In that case, it is not "anchored" towards any spoken language,
> but we can surely learn it and communicate in it.
>
> Regards,
> Ian JOO (주이안)
> http://ianjoo.academia.edu
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 2, 2019 4:19:34 PM
> *To:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] Fwd: Is written language a separate modality?
>
>
> Ian,
>
> My response would be that a deaf person who knows how to read and write in
> an oral language DOES "know" that language, to a very considerable extent.
> What you know when you know a language is an abstract system of rules that
> underlies both speech and writing but exists independently of both of these
> manifestations of language.  Granted, a deaf person who can read and write
> an oral language will be missing out on more substantial aspects of the
> language (most of the phonetics and phonology) than a hearing but
> illiterate person. But still, a deaf person who can read and write
> Indonesian cannot but know lots of the language, rather like a contemporary
> hearing scholar of Ancient Sumerian.  In contrast, a deaf signer of ASL
> does not have his or her linguistic competence anchored in any spoken
> language, such as English — sign languages are not parasitic on or
> derivative from any spoken languages.  (Though there can be all kinds of
> contact between signed and spoken languages, but that's a separate issue.)
>
> David
>
> On 02/01/2019 17:01, Joo Ian wrote:
>
> Dear David,
>
> Thank you for your insight. However, I would not agree that learning
> spoken Indonesian is necessary for learning written Indonesian - the deaf
> Indonesians are a clear counterexample, as they never would have learned
> spoken Indonesian.
>
> Regards,
> Ian JOO (주이안)
> http://ianjoo.academia.edu
>
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of David Gil
> <gil at shh.mpg.de> <gil at shh.mpg.de>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 2, 2019 3:56:30 PM
> *To:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] Is written language a separate modality?
>
> Dear all,
> On 02/01/2019 10:19, Joo Ian wrote:
> I would like to ask everyone if you agree on the idea that written
> language is not simply a representation of spoken language, but a distinct
> modality (similar to how sign and spoken language are different
> modalities).
> I would say yes and no, but more no ...
>
>
> It seems that there is a general consensus that a written language is
> simply the “shadow” of a spoken language. But I am not sure if this is
> exactly the case.
>
> You are right that this is not exactly the case.  Case in point:  Social
> media in Indonesia (and presumably other places as well) has innovated all
> kinds of conventions that are purely orthographic: they have a life of
> their own, beyond the language that they "come from".  Emoticons are just
> one small aspect of this.  if you "just" know Indonesian, but are not
> familiar with these conventions, you won't be able to follow a Facebook
> conversation "in Indonesian".
>
> But here's the rub:  knowing Indonesian isn't a sufficient condition for
> understanding such a Facebook conversation, but it's most definitely a
> necessary condition.  Such orthographic systems are still derivative from
> the spoken language, the way a ludling might be, or, for that matter, the
> way signed versions of spoken languages, such as Signed English is.
>
> But this is NOT the case for real sign languages.  A sign language such as
> ASL has nothing whatsoever to do with any spoken language; you don't need
> to learn English to learn ASL, and for the most part it won't help you that
> much to do so.  So the analogy between written language and sign language
> is of only limited validity and is potentially misleading.
>
> David
> -- David Gil Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution Max Planck
> Institute for the Science of Human History Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745
> Jena, Germany Email: gil at shh.mpg.de Office Phone (Germany):
> +49-3641686834 Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing listLingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orghttp://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
>
> --
> David Gil
>
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
>
> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de
> Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
>
>
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