[Lingtyp] Contents of Lingtyp digest... Verbs of success with dative subject

Sat Jan 5 13:31:44 UTC 2019

 Dear colleague, here follows something from Albanian
In Albanian, there isa verb, referring to success, in a dative subject construction "ec" (walk)

1. Atij                               i                                        eci

(He - dative)      clitic 3d, Sing, dative                  walk 3d, Sing, Past
It is considered as anexpression, meaning – “luck worked for him”. The subject is often missing but well established though: luck, things, work
Compared to the above, there is an alternative success-relating construction
2. Ai ia doli mbane (He made it)
which emphasizes that success relates to the effort of the subject. But the former implies that "luck came to him"

There is another similar construction like 1),with movement verb again, "shkoj" (go)

3. Atij                        i                                              shkojne            punet                mbare
(He - dative)      clitic 3d, Sing, dative                  go3d, plural      works/things     well/successfully
Edmond CaneLecturer, Albanian LanguageBeijing International Studies University

    On Thursday, January 3, 2019, 6:34:38 PM GMT+8, lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:  

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Verbs of success with dative subject (Ludwig Paul)
  2. Re: Verbs of success with dative subject (E. Bashir)
  3. Re: Verbs of success with dative subject (Jussi Ylikoski)
  4. Re: Verbs of success with dative subject (Eitan Grossman)
  5. PUT=LET GO: An areal feature? (Joo Ian)
  6. Re: PUT=LET GO: An areal feature? (Guillaume Jacques)
  7. Re: Verbs of success with dative subject (Guillaume Jacques)
  8. Re: PUT=LET GO: An areal feature? (Mark W. Post)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2019 20:46:25 +0100
From: Ludwig Paul <ludwig.paul at uni-hamburg.de>
To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs of success with dative subject
Message-ID:
    <20190102204625.Horde.UgmgqlMueP2wGD3Kt8ynNVW at webmail.rrz.uni-hamburg.de>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes

Dear Spike,

I could not find the discussion or the answers to your question in the  
list, maybe this is a repetition: there is the German verbal  
expression "mir (Dat.) gelingt etwas", i.e. I am successful in (doing)  
sth.

Best,
Ludwig

Zitat von Spike Gildea <spike at uoregon.edu>:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> I forward a query from my colleague, Jóhanna Barðdal, who is looking  
> for examples of predicates of "success” with non canonical subject  
> marking, in particular those that take a dative subject.
>
> We are working on Indo-European verbs/predicates with the meanings  
> 'succeed', 'be successful', 'make progress', 'turn out well', 'go  
> well'. The last one in the sense "he is doing well in his dance  
> class" or even "he is doing well in life”.
>
> Thank you in advance for indications of other places in the world  
> where we might find such predicates taking a dative subject!
>
> Best,
> Spike

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 20:11:16 +0000 (UTC)
From: "E. Bashir" <ebashir at yahoo.com>
To: Ludwig Paul <ludwig.paul at uni-hamburg.de>,
    "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
    <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs of success with dative subject
Message-ID: <925462763.5249026.1546459876492 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

ِIn Urdu, for a person to be successful in doing something can be expressed as:
X-ko                  Y-me~        kaamyaabii huiiX (person)-DAT Y(effort)-in success      becameY was successful in (doing) Y.
With best wishes,Elena Bashir, Senior Lecturer in UrduThe University of Chicago
      From: Ludwig Paul <ludwig.paul at uni-hamburg.de>
 To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org 
 Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 1:46 PM
 Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs of success with dative subject

Dear Spike,

I could not find the discussion or the answers to your question in the  
list, maybe this is a repetition: there is the German verbal  
expression "mir (Dat.) gelingt etwas", i.e. I am successful in (doing)  
sth.

Best,
Ludwig

Zitat von Spike Gildea <spike at uoregon.edu>:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> I forward a query from my colleague, Jóhanna Barðdal, who is looking  
> for examples of predicates of "success” with non canonical subject  
> marking, in particular those that take a dative subject.
>
> We are working on Indo-European verbs/predicates with the meanings  
> 'succeed', 'be successful', 'make progress', 'turn out well', 'go  
> well'. The last one in the sense "he is doing well in his dance  
> class" or even "he is doing well in life”.
>
> Thank you in advance for indications of other places in the world  
> where we might find such predicates taking a dative subject!
>
> Best,
> Spike

_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp

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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 22:32:56 +0000
From: Jussi Ylikoski <jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi>
To: Ludwig Paul <ludwig.paul at uni-hamburg.de>,
    "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
    <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>, "E. Bashir" <ebashir at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs of success with dative subject
Message-ID:
    <HE1PR0502MB3884B5DD69DD34F401B96D7F898C0 at HE1PR0502MB3884.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear all,

Here is a non-IE example from North Saami (Uralic), disregarding the probable influence from its Scandinavian neighbors. ILL stands for the illative, the case for Direction and Recipient, which could be (and earlier has been) labeled "dative" as well:

Midjiide/Johanii  lihkostuvai    buot.

1PL.ILL/Johan.ILL  succeed.PST.3SG all

'We/Johan succeeded in everything.'

(cf. Norwegian Alt lykkes for oss/Johan.)

Unlike in Scandinavian, a dummy subject usually does not occur:

Midjiide/Johanii  ii      lihkostuvvan    oažžut  oktavuođa  duinna.

1PL.ILL/Johan.ILL  NEG.3SG succeed.PST.PTCP get.INF contact.ACC 2SG.ACC

'We/Johan didn't succeed in contacting you.'

(cf. Norwegian Det lyktes ikke for oss/Johan å ta kontakt med deg.)

Best regards,

Jussi

________________________________
Fra: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> på vegne av E. Bashir <ebashir at yahoo.com>
Sendt: onsdag 2. januar 2019 22.11
Til: Ludwig Paul; lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
Emne: Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs of success with dative subject

ِIn Urdu, for a person to be successful in doing something can be expressed as:

X-ko                  Y-me~        kaamyaabii huii
X (person)-DAT Y(effort)-in success      became
Y was successful in (doing) Y.

With best wishes,
Elena Bashir, Senior Lecturer in Urdu
The University of Chicago

________________________________
From: Ludwig Paul <ludwig.paul at uni-hamburg.de>
To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs of success with dative subject

Dear Spike,

I could not find the discussion or the answers to your question in the
list, maybe this is a repetition: there is the German verbal
expression "mir (Dat.) gelingt etwas", i.e. I am successful in (doing)
sth.

Best,
Ludwig

Zitat von Spike Gildea <spike at uoregon.edu<mailto:spike at uoregon.edu>>:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> I forward a query from my colleague, Jóhanna Barðdal, who is looking
> for examples of predicates of "success” with non canonical subject
> marking, in particular those that take a dative subject.
>
> We are working on Indo-European verbs/predicates with the meanings
> 'succeed', 'be successful', 'make progress', 'turn out well', 'go
> well'. The last one in the sense "he is doing well in his dance
> class" or even "he is doing well in life”.
>
> Thank you in advance for indications of other places in the world
> where we might find such predicates taking a dative subject!
>
> Best,
> Spike

_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp

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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 06:51:46 +0200
From: Eitan Grossman <eitan.grossman at mail.huji.ac.il>
To: Jussi Ylikoski <jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi>
Cc: Ludwig Paul <ludwig.paul at uni-hamburg.de>,
    "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
    <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>, "E. Bashir" <ebashir at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs of success with dative subject
Message-ID:
    <CAA00bN=uN128Xu+_cjNFeQL17rgLVnV7_OM5gFfUXYn2zhO9+Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi all,
Hebrew also has such constructions, although I imagine there are analyses
in which these are not non-canonical subjects. With the lexical verb 'to
succeed', you have a contrast between (a) and (b):

(a) Nuʁit hitsliχ-a (b-a-mivχan)
 Nurit succeed.PST-3sgf (on-the-test)
'Nurit did well (on the test).'

(b) (Nuʁit...) hitsliaχ l-a (b-a-mivχan)
(Nurit...) succeed.PST.3sgm DAT-3sgf (on-the-test)
'She succeeded/it went well for her (on the test).'

(Interestingly, I don't know if "to fail" participates in the same
alternation. While I wouldn't say niχʃal l-a [fail.PST.3sgm DAT-3sgf], I
wouldn't rule it out as a possibility, and I can imagine some contexts in
which it would be ok. In any event, it isn't conventionalized to the same
extent as the "succeed" pair.)

There are also multiple constructions in which datives participate in the
domain of "doing well/succeeding" or the opposite. As an example:

(c) halaχ l-a (tov/ʁa)
go.PST.3sgm DAT-3sgf (good/bad)
'It went well/badly for her.'

Again, I'm not sure how Hebrew specialists would analyze these, because the
analysis of the dative is pretty contentious.

Best,
Eitan

Eitan Grossman
Senior Lecturer, Department of Linguistics/School of Language Sciences
Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Tel: +972 2 588 3809
Fax: +972 2 588 1224

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 12:33 AM Jussi Ylikoski <jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi>
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
>
>
> Here is a non-IE example from North Saami (Uralic), disregarding the
> probable influence from its Scandinavian neighbors. ILL stands for the
> illative, the case for Direction and Recipient, which could be (and earlier
> has been) labeled "dative" as well:
>
>
>
> Midjiide/Johanii  lihkostuvai    buot.
>
> 1PL.ILL/Johan.ILL  succeed.PST.3SG all
>
> 'We/Johan succeeded in everything.'
>
> (cf. Norwegian *Alt lykkes for oss/Johan*.)
>
>
>
> Unlike in Scandinavian, a dummy subject usually does not occur:
>
>
>
> Midjiide/Johanii  ii      lihkostuvvan    oažžut  oktavuođa  duinna.
>
> 1PL.ILL/Johan.ILL  NEG.3SG succeed.PST.PTCP get.INF contact.ACC 2SG.ACC
>
> 'We/Johan didn't succeed in contacting you.'
>
> (cf. Norwegian *Det lyktes ikke for oss/Johan å ta kontakt med deg*.)
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Jussi
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *Fra:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> på vegne av E.
> Bashir <ebashir at yahoo.com>
> *Sendt:* onsdag 2. januar 2019 22.11
> *Til:* Ludwig Paul; lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Emne:* Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs of success with dative subject
>
> ِIn Urdu, for a person to be successful in doing something can be
> expressed as:
>
> X-ko                  Y-me~        kaamyaabii huii
> X (person)-DAT Y(effort)-in success      became
> Y was successful in (doing) Y.
>
> With best wishes,
> Elena Bashir, Senior Lecturer in Urdu
> The University of Chicago
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Ludwig Paul <ludwig.paul at uni-hamburg.de>
> *To:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 2, 2019 1:46 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs of success with dative subject
>
> Dear Spike,
>
> I could not find the discussion or the answers to your question in the
> list, maybe this is a repetition: there is the German verbal
> expression "mir (Dat.) gelingt etwas", i.e. I am successful in (doing)
> sth.
>
> Best,
> Ludwig
>
> Zitat von Spike Gildea <spike at uoregon.edu>:
>
> > Dear colleagues,
> >
> > I forward a query from my colleague, Jóhanna Barðdal, who is looking
> > for examples of predicates of "success” with non canonical subject
> > marking, in particular those that take a dative subject.
> >
> > We are working on Indo-European verbs/predicates with the meanings
> > 'succeed', 'be successful', 'make progress', 'turn out well', 'go
> > well'. The last one in the sense "he is doing well in his dance
> > class" or even "he is doing well in life”.
> >
> > Thank you in advance for indications of other places in the world
> > where we might find such predicates taking a dative subject!
> >
> > Best,
> > Spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 10:02:38 +0000
From: Joo Ian <ian.joo at outlook.com>
To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
    <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Cc: Meichun Liu <meichunliu0107 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Lingtyp] PUT=LET GO: An areal feature?
Message-ID:
    <SN6PR07MB4557B4BD7000393CBBC0381BFE8D0 at SN6PR07MB4557.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear all,

I wonder if you know any language where the primary morpheme meaning 'to put' and the one meaning 'to let go (to seize holding something)' are the same.
At this point I only know four: Mandarin (fàng), Korean (noh), Mongolian (tav), and White Hmong (tso).
They are all spoken in East Asia (with White Hmong spreading out to SE Asia), so I wonder if this feature is unique to this area.

Regards,
Ian JOO (주이안)
http://ianjoo.academia.edu

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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 11:22:26 +0100
From: Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
To: Joo Ian <ian.joo at outlook.com>
Cc: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
    <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>,  Meichun Liu
    <meichunliu0107 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] PUT=LET GO: An areal feature?
Message-ID:
    <CAAzt3zb2msMQ5_gtiw-r1rkQ612Jecy6Bv=5koT4E=yYEbHq1A at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

It is the case in Japhug, where the verb *ta *means both "put" and "leave,
let go, release", see the Japhug-Chinese-French dictionary, p.316:

https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-01244860v2/document

with sound files:
http://himalco.huma-num.fr/dictionaries/japhug/dictionary_mp3.pdf

Jacques, Guillaume 2016. Dictionnaire Japhug-chinois français, version 1.1,
Paris: projet Himalco.

Le jeu. 3 janv. 2019 à 11:02, Joo Ian <ian.joo at outlook.com> a écrit :

> Dear all,
>
> I wonder if you know any language where the primary morpheme meaning 'to
> put' and the one meaning 'to let go (to seize holding something)' are the
> same.
> At this point I only know four: Mandarin (fàng), Korean (noh), Mongolian
> (tav), and White Hmong (tso).
> They are all spoken in East Asia (with White Hmong spreading out to SE
> Asia), so I wonder if this feature is unique to this area.
>
> Regards,
> Ian JOO (주이안)
> http://ianjoo.academia.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 11:31:52 +0100
From: Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
To: Spike Gildea <spike at uoregon.edu>
Cc: "Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
    <Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs of success with dative subject
Message-ID:
    <CAAzt3zbtB1jk5JuV-UTSV7W8OzajZWj6AEz2-yDLFuNMVH48Tg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear Spike,

In Japhug, the verb *ŋgrɯ* "succeed" selects the genitive, as in (1)

(1) aʑɯɣ pɯ-ŋgrɯ
1SG:GEN PFV-succeed
"I succeeded" (Jacques 2016: 210)

The genitive is used in Japhug to mark the recipient of some indirective
verbs, as well as the beneficiary.

Jacques, Guillaume 2016. Dictionnaire Japhug-chinois français, version 1.1,
Paris: projet Himalco
https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-01244860v2/document

Le ven. 21 déc. 2018 à 17:01, Spike Gildea <spike at uoregon.edu> a écrit :

> Dear colleagues,
>
> I forward a query from my colleague, Jóhanna Barðdal, who is looking for
> examples of predicates of "success” with non canonical subject marking, in
> particular those that take a dative subject.
>
> We are working on Indo-European verbs/predicates with the meanings
> 'succeed', 'be successful', 'make progress', 'turn out well', 'go well'.
> The last one in the sense "he is doing well in his dance class" or even "he
> is doing well in life”.
>
>
> Thank you in advance for indications of other places in the world where we
> might find such predicates taking a dative subject!
>
> Best,
> Spike
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 16:03:19 +0530
From: "Mark W. Post" <markwpost at gmail.com>
To: Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
Cc: Joo Ian <ian.joo at outlook.com>, lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org,
    Meichun Liu <meichunliu0107 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] PUT=LET GO: An areal feature?
Message-ID:
    <CA+dHXR+YesknihG0y5==SE8vNCgdwMAbfViJgQdWQ-gZ98puXw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Found in Adi (TB > Tani > Eastern Tani, Eastern Himalaya) also, root is më
(schwa).
Mark

On Thu., 3 Jan. 2019, 15:53 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com
wrote:

> It is the case in Japhug, where the verb *ta *means both "put" and
> "leave, let go, release", see the Japhug-Chinese-French dictionary, p.316:
>
> https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-01244860v2/document
>
> with sound files:
> http://himalco.huma-num.fr/dictionaries/japhug/dictionary_mp3.pdf
>
> Jacques, Guillaume 2016. Dictionnaire Japhug-chinois français, version
> 1.1, Paris: projet Himalco.
>
>
>
> Le jeu. 3 janv. 2019 à 11:02, Joo Ian <ian.joo at outlook.com> a écrit :
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I wonder if you know any language where the primary morpheme meaning 'to
>> put' and the one meaning 'to let go (to seize holding something)' are the
>> same.
>> At this point I only know four: Mandarin (fàng), Korean (noh), Mongolian
>> (tav), and White Hmong (tso).
>> They are all spoken in East Asia (with White Hmong spreading out to SE
>> Asia), so I wonder if this feature is unique to this area.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ian JOO (주이안)
>> http://ianjoo.academia.edu
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Jacques
> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
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