[Lingtyp] Factual inadequacies in Haspelmath's article on serial verbs: an Open letter to the Editor of Language and Linguistics

Wed Jan 23 11:02:55 UTC 2019

Dear Jeffrey

It helps a typologist to have a good grasp of firsthand work with languages , and fieldwork experience. But the issue with many typologists is lack of attention to detail in quotations, generalizations, language facts - you name it. A typology (any scholarship, really) can only be valid is facts are right.

It is sad that so many 'typologists' don't care....

Best wishes, also from Bob

Sasha

Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, PhD, DLitt, FAHA

Distinguished Professor and Australian Laureate Fellow

Director of the Language and Culture Research Centre

James Cook University

PO Box 6811, Cairns, Queensland 4870, Australia

http://www.jcu.edu.au/faess/JCUPRD_043649.html

mobile 0400 305315, office 61-7-40421117

fax 61-7-4042 1880  http://www.aikhenvaldlinguistics.com/

https://research.jcu.edu.au/researchatjcu/research/lcrc

________________________________
From: Heath Jeffrey <schweinehaxen at hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2019 8:05 AM
To: Edith A Moravcsik; Alexandra Aikhenvald; lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
Subject: Re: Factual inadequacies in Haspelmath's article on serial verbs: an Open letter to the Editor of Language and Linguistics

I see this exchange as emblematic of the current problems with "typology" as a serious scientific enterprise. Martin and others who believe in it are heavily invested in cross-linguistically valid low-level concepts and advocacy of a uniform terminology. Sasha is a combination typologist and field grammarian who sees the problems with this approach without rejecting it wholesale, and advocates replacing universal claims with weaker generalizations. I am a grammarian first and foremost and believe that typology as a distinct subfield is living on borrowed time and will soon be relegated to undergraduate teaching and as a starting point for crosslinguistic research (WALS etc.).

This process has been seen before, many decades ago, in all of the older empirical biological and sociological-anthropological disciplines. It ends with the peripheralization of bottom-up universal typology and its replacement by top-down analysis ("functional" if you like) and integrative study of specific languages/societies/species and their interactions in space and time.
________________________________
From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Edith A Moravcsik <edith at uwm.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 11:34 AM
To: Alexandra Aikhenvald; lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Factual inadequacies in Haspelmath's article on serial verbs: an Open letter to the Editor of Language and Linguistics

I need to make a crucial correction to my earlier message.  Haspelmath’s generalizations about serial verb constructions that Aikhenvald and Dixon take issue with were not offered by Martin as defining the construction: they were meant to be empirical statements about the construction already defined.

(The general issue of course still holds: how should the construction be defined?)

Edith

From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> On Behalf Of Alexandra Aikhenvald
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 12:58 AM
To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
Subject: [Lingtyp] Factual inadequacies in Haspelmath's article on serial verbs: an Open letter to the Editor of Language and Linguistics

Dear colleagues

The recent paper on serial verbs by Martin Haspelmath (2016. 'The serial verb construction: comparative concept and cross-linguistic generalizations'. Language and Linguistics 17: 291-319) has caused concern to a fair number of linguists. Quite apart from attempting to re-characterize the category, the paper contains a number of factual inadequacies.

Encouraged by our colleagues, we have written a straightforward letter to the editor of the journal Language and Linguistics, with a list of corrections. However, they declined to publish it. Our letter is attached to this message.

Sincerely

Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald

R. M. W. Dixon

Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, PhD, DLitt, FAHA

Distinguished Professor and Australian Laureate Fellow

Director of the Language and Culture Research Centre

James Cook University

PO Box 6811, Cairns, Queensland 4870, Australia

http://www.jcu.edu.au/faess/JCUPRD_043649.html<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jcu.edu.au%2Ffaess%2FJCUPRD_043649.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd5afc7e5d455415481d908d680879bdd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636837717261977733&sdata=%2BBWvrvSschUoCxPZoKElz%2F2GcJ%2BEjSd%2FO5wTB0d4Rnk%3D&reserved=0>

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________________________________

From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of Bohnemeyer, Juergen <jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 January 2019 5:02 PM
To: Alexander B.
Cc: LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] history of linguistics: phonological word

True. Not sure how Google Docs comes up with 1945. Odd.

> On Jan 22, 2019, at 12:54 AM, Alexander B. <synru11 at gmail.com<mailto:synru11 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Correction: Agard 1958, not 1945 (checked de visu).
>
> Agard, Frederick B. "Structural Sketch of Rumanian." Language 34, no. 3 (1958): 7-127. doi:10.2307/522282.
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 8:44 PM Bohnemeyer, Juergen <jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>> wrote:
> Harald Hammarström’s post gave me the idea of trying Google Ngram Viewer, which allows one to track down the earliest uses of a phrase in Google Docs. I found this definition in Nida (1946: 13):
>
> "In describing some syntactic unit it is convenient to designate the combination of word plus clitic element as consisting of a ‘phonological word’.”
>
> Nida, E. A. (1946). Syntax, a descriptive analysis. SIL.
>
> However, Google Docs also contains two 1945 uses, one of which I was able to track down:
>
> Agard, A. F. (1945). Structural sketch of Rumanian. Language 34(3 Part 2): 7-127.
>
> "The phonological word is defined as a free, meaningful linear stretch containing one strong-stressed syllable with or without one or more weak-stressed syllables before or after it, provided no one of those weak syllables is itself free to be uttered (with strong stress) in isolation.”
>
> The other 1945 hit appears to be in the journal Word, Volumes 38-39, pp87-88, 223. Google Docs does not provide any further information and my university’s library does not have digital holdings of this journal.
>
> Best — Juergen
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 21, 2019, at 6:16 PM, Alexander B. <synru11 at gmail.com<mailto:synru11 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hocket 1949 was published in SIL 7.29-51 (1949).
> >
> > Eunice Pike (e.g. in Pike 1951, originally presented at the LSA summer meeting in 1950) writes that
> >
> > "A word, which may include one or more proclitics, is phonologically determined; it carries only one high stress and is constituted phonetically of a stress group (possibly a rhythm unit or ABDOMINAL PULSE) ft.5; it is the minimal unit which may occur in isolation; following any word, given proper context, there is potentiality for pause. The word begins on any syllable which immediately follows an intoneme-carrying syllable. Between words a space is written to symbolize their borders" (p. 38).
> >
> > https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/464098<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.journals.uchicago.edu%2Fdoi%2Fabs%2F10.1086%2F464098&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd5afc7e5d455415481d908d680879bdd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636837717262133987&sdata=QRd%2F4oCmhUlXo9lVd7o%2FowAtH8IEukAA6fz2LjOMN2c%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 1:03 PM Bohnemeyer, Juergen <jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>> wrote:
> > I was also thinking Pike. Turns out I was wrong. Pike (1952: 110) cites a definition of the term by Hockett:
> >
> > Kenneth L. Pike (1952) More on Grammatical Prerequisites, WORD, 8:2, 106-121, DOI: 10.1080/00437956.1952.11659425
> >
> > https://tinyurl.com/ycm8nntc<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftinyurl.com%2Fycm8nntc&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd5afc7e5d455415481d908d680879bdd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636837717262133987&sdata=7dIclVyrnFSOeV65LXV0LHxXGQ%2Fv7cIscpglVmU%2BYZE%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > Unfortunately, I’m not able make sense of the system Pike uses for attribution in that article, so I can’t say what paper of Hockett’s he’s citing ;-) I’m sure we have people on this list who have some familiarity with structuralist era citation conventions…
> >
> > Note also that Hockett’s definition is super-simple and super-general and doesn’t necessarily capture what I was taught to think of as the essence of the phonological word, namely, that it encompasses clitics and their hosts:
> >
> > > But it is also possible to define a PHONOLOGICAL WORD: any stretch of phonemes which occurs as a whole utterance, and which cannot be broken into two or more shorter stretches which also so occur, quite regardless of meanings.
> >
> > This seems to presuppose a very technical definition of ‘utterance’ that isn’t immediately obvious to me.
> >
> > I think what we’re seeing here may be an example of a more general phenomenon of terminological evolution: terms (labels) and concepts travel somewhat independently through time, bump into one another at certain points in time, stick together for a while, and then possibly break up again.
> >
> > Best — Juergen
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jan 21, 2019, at 3:02 PM, Larry M. HYMAN <hyman at berkeley.edu<mailto:hyman at berkeley.edu>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Not sure if everyone was similarly influenced, but this confirms my belief that Kenneth Pike either originated or was the most consistent proponent not only of the phonological word but of the phonological hierarchy subsequently adopted by others. See for example the following article which focuses on the phonological word in Otomí. Although later than those cited by Matthew (1968) refers back to Pike in footnote 3 (p.77):
> > >
> > > "The hierarchical concept untilized in the present discussion is based upon Kenneth Pike's theory (1954-60)."
> > >
> > > Wallis, Ethel E. 1968. The word and the phonological hierarchy of Mezquital Otomí. Language 44.76-90.
> > >
> > > Pike, Kenneth L. 1954 (vol. 1), 1955 (vol.2), 1960 (vol.3). Language in relation to a unified theory of the structure of human behavior Glendale: Summer Institute of Linguistics.
> > >
> > > I haven't gone back to check these works (or the Mouton book that came out a little later), but I suspect the winning lower bid is 1954, at least thus far.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 11:47 AM Dryer, Matthew <dryer at buffalo.edu<mailto:dryer at buffalo.edu>> wrote:
> > > The three earliest uses of the expression phonological word that I am aware of are in
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Healey, Alan. (1964) The Ok Language Family in New Guinea. Australian National University doctoral dissertation.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > “There is a close, but
> > > not perfect, correlation between the phonological and grammatical word.”
> > >
> > > (Miller, Wick R. (1965) Acoma grammar and texts (University of California Publications in Linguistics 40). Berkeley and Los Angeles: University of California Press.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > “The phonological word has a stronger decrescendo of speed and intensity, and sometimes of pitch than does the stress group. In slow speech the phonological word usually corresponds with a grammatical word so that their decrescendos overlap, but in fast speech several stress groups with their included, mild decrescendos”
> > >
> > > (Eastman, Elizabeth & Robert Eastman. (1963) Iquito syntax. In Studies in Peruvian Indian Languages 1, 145-192. Summer Institute of Linguistics.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Matthew
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of TasakuTsunoda <tasakutsunoda at nifty.com<mailto:tasakutsunoda at nifty.com>>
> > > Date: Monday, January 21, 2019 at 2:11 AM
> > > To: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu<mailto:ajrtallman at utexas.edu>>, "LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>" <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> > > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] history of linguistics: phonological word
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Adam,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >     Please see the following book:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Lyons, John. 1968. Introduction to theoretical linguistics. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Pp68-70 have the following subsection:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >         2.2.11 Grammatical and phonological words
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tasaku Tsunoda
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 送信元: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> (Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu<mailto:ajrtallman at utexas.edu>> の代理)
> > > 日付: 2019年1月20日日曜日 7:44
> > > 宛先: <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> > > 件名: [Lingtyp] history of linguistics: phonological word
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm trying to trace the roots of the development of the concept of "phonological word". Does anyone know who first used this term? The earliest I can find is Dixon's (1977) grammar of Yidin. What about "prosodic word"?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm aware that the roots of the idea can be found much earlier than when the concept was first mentioned, but I'm interested in the implicit analogy between a morphosyntactic constituency and phonological constituency and how, when and why that entered linguistics.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Any help would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > best,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Adam
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Adam J.R. Tallman
> > >
> > > Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________ Lingtyp mailing list Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd5afc7e5d455415481d908d680879bdd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636837717262133987&sdata=f%2BC4%2F2QdUwAcJZtJLyO3mEqWL7ZZfqlNNOnloprB71E%3D&reserved=0>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Executive Director, France-Berkeley Fund
> > > Department of Linguistics, University of California, Berkeley
> > > http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/people/person_detail.php?person=19<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flinguistics.berkeley.edu%2Fpeople%2Fperson_detail.php%3Fperson%3D19&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd5afc7e5d455415481d908d680879bdd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636837717262133987&sdata=ICcrG34KBn%2BdaQ%2FbLhNB7HWk8XhwTYjrLzGULJunHN8%3D&reserved=0>
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
> > Juergen Bohnemeyer, Professor and Director of Graduate Studies
> > Department of Linguistics and Center for Cognitive Science
> > University at Buffalo
> >
> > Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus * Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> > Phone: (716) 645 0127
> > Fax: (716) 645 3825 * Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu> * Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd5afc7e5d455415481d908d680879bdd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636837717262133987&sdata=07A3eww9mB8yVrGk9TnlonLYou6PMWbkCKc65%2BLfQmU%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > Office hours Mo 3:30-4:30 / F 2:00-3:00
> >
> > There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In (Leonard Cohen)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd5afc7e5d455415481d908d680879bdd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636837717262133987&sdata=f%2BC4%2F2QdUwAcJZtJLyO3mEqWL7ZZfqlNNOnloprB71E%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alex
>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer, Professor and Director of Graduate Studies
> Department of Linguistics and Center for Cognitive Science
> University at Buffalo
>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus * Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> Fax: (716) 645 3825 * Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu> * Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd5afc7e5d455415481d908d680879bdd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636837717262133987&sdata=07A3eww9mB8yVrGk9TnlonLYou6PMWbkCKc65%2BLfQmU%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Office hours Mo 3:30-4:30 / F 2:00-3:00
>
> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In (Leonard Cohen)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd5afc7e5d455415481d908d680879bdd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636837717262133987&sdata=f%2BC4%2F2QdUwAcJZtJLyO3mEqWL7ZZfqlNNOnloprB71E%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> --
> Alex

Juergen Bohnemeyer, Professor and Director of Graduate Studies
Department of Linguistics and Center for Cognitive Science
University at Buffalo

Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus * Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
Phone: (716) 645 0127
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Office hours Mo 3:30-4:30 / F 2:00-3:00

There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In (Leonard Cohen)

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