[Lingtyp] R: Languages that lack syntactic self-embedding (Kilu von Prince)

Fri Apr 24 09:18:40 UTC 2020

Dear Kilu,
concerning the discussion about Piraha you certainly know
the on line discussion by Piantadosi, Stearns, Everett and Gibson: http://tedlab.mit.edu/piraha/piraha_corpus/

Best,
Paolo

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Lingtyp [mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org] Per conto di Adam Singerman
Inviato: giovedì 23 aprile 2020 19:12
A: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
Oggetto: Re: [Lingtyp] Languages that lack syntactic self-embedding (Kilu von Prince)

Dear Kilu,

I'd recommend that you look at the debate in volume 85 of Language (2009). Andrew Nevins, David Pesetsky and Cilene Rodrigues critiqued many of Daniel Everett's claims re: Pirahã. Everett replied to their article, and Nevins, Pesetsky and Rodrigues then replied to his reply.
DOI: https://doi.org/10.1353/lan.0.0107

Another article that you should look at (from volume 93 of Language) is "NP recursion over time: Evidence from Indo-European," by Widmer, Auderset, Nichols, Widmer and Bickel. DOI:
https://doi.org/10.1353/lan.2017.0058

A more recent book that you might want to check out is "Recursion Across Domains," which examines evidence for and against recursive syntactic structure in a range of languages (including quite a few from Brazil). "Recursion Across Domains" was given two different reviews in Language, one exceptionally critical (by Everett and
Gibson) and the other quite positive (by Norbert Hornstein). If you read those reviews then you should also look at Rodrigues's response to Everett and Gibson, available here:
https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/004928

All the best,
Adam

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:05 PM
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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Languages that lack syntactic self-embedding (Kilu von Prince)
>    2. Re: predicative possession (Fany Muchembled)
>    3. Re: R: predicative possession (Raffaele Simone)
>    4. Re: predicative possession (Hilary Chappell)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:08:42 +0200
> From: Kilu von Prince <watasenia at gmail.com>
> To: "<LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>"
>         <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: [Lingtyp] Languages that lack syntactic self-embedding
> Message-ID:
>         
> <CAK3VzUnvR+_d3rNakviiFU5P8hmjGREysaPrjKPtpSNEbfTQ5g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear all,
>
> I'm trying to get an overview of languages that have been described as 
> lacking (certain types of) syntactic embedding, such as Teiwa, 
> Kayardild or Pirahã.
>
> In particular, I'm interested in languages that do not allow for 
> (certain types of) subordinate clauses. Evidence for lack of iterated 
> possessive NPs (Mary's mother's house) or PPs (the pen on the book on 
> the desk) would also be of interest to me.
>
> Feel free to send me your references and examples directly, I promise 
> to compile a summary of all informative responses and post it to the list.
>
> All the best,
> Kilu
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> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:05:18 +0000
> From: Fany Muchembled <fany.muchembled at tec.mx>
> To: Sergey Loesov <sergeloesov at gmail.com>,
>         "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>         <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] predicative possession
> Message-ID:
>         
> <SN6PR05MB64157C7F5653FE89C70D04B799D20 at SN6PR05MB6415.namprd05.prod.ou
> tlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Beside Heine (the major reference) and Stassen (more cuestionable), Creissels wrote a reference paper a few years ago:‘Remarques sur l’émergence de verbes ‘avoir’ au cours de l’histoire des langues’. Faits de langues. 149-158.
> He has also publishes other Works about the topic (see 
> http://www.deniscreissels.fr/index.php?pages/articles-publi%C3%83%C2%A
> 9s)
>
> and for an exploration of this topic in uto-aztecan languages:
> Muchembled, F. 2014. La posesión predicativa en lenguas yutoaztecas. 
> Tesis doctoral. Hermosillo, UNISON / Paris, INALCO
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Dra. Fany Muchembled
>
> Profesora de Francés y Ciencias Sociales
>
> Investigadora en Lingüística (GIEE Comunicación y Estudios Culturales)
>
> PrepaTec Campus Sonora Norte
>
> Departamento de Idiomas
>
> Tecnológico de Monterrey
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> De: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> en nombre de 
> Sergey Loesov <sergeloesov at gmail.com>
> Enviado: miércoles, 22 de abril de 2020 04:25 a. m.
> Para: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org 
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Asunto: [Lingtyp] predicative possession
>
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> could you please advise me literature on the encoding of the notion 
> HAVE/HAVING in the languages that, unlike English, do not have 
> generally applicable and versatile HAVE-verbs? I am interested in the 
> grammaticalization paths in this semantic domain.  (I suspect people 
> call this field “predicative possession.”)
>
> Best wishes,
>
>  Sergey
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> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:27:22 +0200
> From: Raffaele Simone <rsimone at os.uniroma3.it>
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: predicative possession
> Message-ID: <dc0298f5-c593-31dc-b581-91f0402a2da5 at os.uniroma3.it>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
>
> The late Hansjakob Seiler has dealt with the notion "possession" in 
> depth in several of his papers and books. See for instance:
>
> Hansjakob Seiler, Possession as an operational dimension of language.
> Günter Narr Verlag, Language Universals Series 2. Tübingen, 1983
>
> Best,
>
> Raffaele Simone
>
> Università Roma Tre, Rome
>
> Il 22/04/2020 18:35, Paolo Ramat ha scritto:
> > Dear Sergey, you might be interested in the following reference:
> >
> >   Gianguido Manzelli, Paolo Ramat & Elisa Roma, Remarks on marginal possession: are feelings owned? In: Mediterranean languages. Papers from the MEDTYP workshop, Tirrenia, June 2000. Ed. by Paolo Ramat & Thomas Stolz. Universitätsverlag Dr. N. Brockmeyer. Bochum 2002: 223-245.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > P.Rt.
> >
> > -----Messaggio originale-----
> > Da: Lingtyp [mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org] Per 
> > conto di Egor Kashkin
> > Inviato: mercoledì 22 aprile 2020 14:14
> > A: Sergey Loesov <sergeloesov at gmail.com>
> > Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > Oggetto: Re: [Lingtyp] predicative possession
> >
> > Dear Sergey,
> >
> > I think you might be interested in this paper by László Honti on Uralic, including a huge list of references:
> > http://www.kirj.ee/public/Linguistica_Uralica/2008/issue_3/ling-2008
> > -3-161-177.pdf
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Egor Kashkin
> >
> > ср, 22 апр. 2020 г. в 14:25, Sergey Loesov <sergeloesov at gmail.com>:
> >> Dear colleagues,
> >>
> >> could you please advise me literature on the encoding of the notion 
> >> HAVE/HAVING in the languages that, unlike English, do not have 
> >> generally applicable and versatile HAVE-verbs? I am interested in 
> >> the grammaticalization paths in this semantic domain.  (I suspect 
> >> people call this field “predicative possession.”)
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >>   Sergey
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Lingtyp mailing list
> >> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >
> >
> --
> ===============
> Emeritus Professor, Università Roma Tre Hon C Lund University Membre 
> de l'Académie Royale de Belgique Chevalier de l'Ordre des Arts et des 
> Lettres de France Accademico della Crusca =============== Attività e 
> pubblicazioni // Activity and publications 
> http://uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone
>
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> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:35:50 +0200
> From: Hilary Chappell <hmchappell at gmail.com>
> To: Sergey Loesov <sergeloesov at gmail.com>
> Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] predicative possession
> Message-ID:
>         
> <CAAhO4o7AjqEMm2K3gpD_o2+dHiJ8n5mYNSyAKz=92H_aFJxfVA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Denis and I have recently published a paper on this general topic, 
> based on a sample of 71 languages from East and Southeast Asia:
>
> H. Chappell & D. Creissels. 2019.Topicality and the typology of 
> predicative possession. *Linguistic Typology* (2019) 23.3 468-532.
> https://doi.org/10.1515/lingty-2019-0016
>
> Best regards,
> Hilary Chappell
> Chair Professor in the Typology of East Asian languages / Directrice 
> d'études en typologie linguistique de l'Asie orientale Ecole des 
> hautes études en sciences sociales (EHESS) Centre de recherches 
> linguistiques sur l'Asie orientale (CRLAO) Paris
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 13:25, Sergey Loesov <sergeloesov at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear colleagues,
> >
> > could you please advise me literature on the encoding of the notion 
> > HAVE/HAVING in the languages that, unlike English, do not have 
> > generally applicable and versatile HAVE-verbs? I am interested in 
> > the grammaticalization paths in this semantic domain.  (I suspect 
> > people call this field “predicative possession.”)
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> >  Sergey
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >
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