[Lingtyp] query: how do ludlings apply to ideophones?

[Jess Tauber]

The late Roger Westcott looked into  substitutions in reduplicated forms
with derogative meanings. They are present in great numbers with
expressives in Santali (Munda) and presumably in other languages from that
family. In addition we see it in Southeast Asian Mon-Khmer languages (All
Austroasiatic). Unlike English, which has only a handful of possible
substitutions in reduplicated forms, Santali has many possible
substitutions- both in consonants and vowels.  I am unaware, however, of
any blanket substitutions that apply across words in an utterance in these
languages. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen- just that I'm unaware of
the phenomenon.

Jess Tauber

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 1:23 PM Hiroto Uchihara <uchihara at buffalo.edu>
wrote:

> Dear David,
>
> In Japanese "babi-go", which inserts a syllable -bV after each mora, this
> -bV apply this to ideophones too (as well as to final particles), as in
> (2), at least for me:
>
> (1) mógumogu-to tabé-másh-ita=ká
>      IDEO-CITA eat-POLIT-PAST=Q
>      'Did (you) munch on it?'
>
> (2) mobógúbúmóbúgubu-tobo tababébémábáshibitaba=kábá
>
> Maybe the Japanese babi-go is based more on orthography, at least in my
> case; I wonder how illiterate speakers would react.
>
> Best regards,
> Hiroto
>
>
> El jue., 27 de ago. de 2020 a la(s) 12:00, David Gil (gil at shh.mpg.de)
> escribió:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>>
>> Does anybody have any data on whether and how ludlings apply to
>> ideophones?
>>
>>
>>
>> (Terminology: Ludlings, also known as language games, or secret
>> languages, are specialized speech styles in which you do things like insert
>> a [b] in every syllable, or reverse the order of syllables in a word.  Ideophones
>> are forms that appear to stand apart from the regular grammatical  rules
>> and constraints of the language, both phonologically and in terms of their
>> meanings which often contain an affective component; although most renowned
>> from languages of West Africa and Mainland Southeast Asia, they are found
>> in most or all languages.)
>>
>>
>>
>> My prediction, which I would like to test, is that ideophones will be
>> opaque to ludlings, that is to say, when applying to an utterance
>> containing an ideophone, the ludling will "skip over" the ideophone and not
>> apply to it.  But of course I could be wrong ...
>>
>>
>>
>> Elsewhere I have observed that in languages with (typically
>> sentence-final) pragmatic particles, such particles are opaque to ludlings,
>> and I used this to argue that such particles lie on a separate and largely
>> suprasegmental tier to which the ludling does not apply.  I would like
>> to explore whether a similar argument might also be applicable to
>> ideophones — hence this query.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>> David
>>
>> --
>> David Gil
>>
>> Senior Scientist (Associate)
>> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
>> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
>> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
>>
>> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de
>> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
>> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
>>
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>
>
> --
> Dr. Hiroto Uchihara
> https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0
> Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas
> Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas
> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
> Circuito Mario de la Cueva
> Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, Ciudad de México.
> Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489
> Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250, Ext. 49223
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