[Lingtyp] Numeral 'one' and 'as soon as'

David Gil gil at shh.mpg.de
Thu Apr 1 11:39:10 UTC 2021


Dear all,

While Martin talks of borrowing of pattern (i.e. calquing), I have just 
recently become aware of a possible and rather strange, even bizarre, 
borrowing of matter:  English /once/ (in its use as 'as soon as') into 
Hebrew, [wans].  At first I thought this was an instance of 
Hebrew/English code-switching in (mostly academic) discussions; however, 
I have recently heard it a couple of times in Hebrew-language 
conversations which didn't seem to be likely venues for code-switching.  
It's certainly not common usage; I wonder whether other speakers of 
Hebrew following this exchange have noticed this.

For what it's worth, the usual Hebrew expression for 'as soon as' is 
/be=regaʕ še= /(in=moment REL), which, unlike the common "European 
substrate" languages for modern Hebrew, doesn't have a 'one' in it.

David


On 01/04/2021 12:39, Martin Haspelmath wrote:
> And it is only in this exchange that I realize that German /Mal/ 'time 
> (in the sense of the French /fois/)' can be used in a somewhat similar 
> way, in the combination /zumal/ (= /zu Mal/):
>
> /Ich werde gehen, zumal du so früh gekommen bist./
> 'I'll be leaving, as you came so early.'
>
> Maybe German also borrowed this from French in one way or another. 
> (But note that /zumal/ only means '(in as much) as', i.e. it only has 
> a causal sense.)
>
> (There are so many similarities among European languages that seem to 
> be due to borrowing in one way or another...)
>
> Best,
> Martin
>
> Am 01.04.21 um 09:39 schrieb Michael Daniel:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> only in this exchange I realized that the Russian /раз/ 'time' (in 
>> the sense of the French 'fois'), is used in a syntactically similar 
>> construction but functionally different construction as introducing 
>> cause complement clauses:
>>
>> /Раз ты пришел так рано, я пойду/.
>> As you came so early, I'll be leaving. (Lit. 'Time you.sg 
>> <http://you.sg> come.Pst so early, I leave.Prs)
>>
>> Note that no numeral is used in these constructions, unlike what the 
>> original query was looking for.
>>
>> But is the French "Une fois que" not somewhat similar to Russian in 
>> this respect, in that it is not (only) used in the sense "as soon as" 
>> but also to introduce subordinate clauses of cause? (And maybe 
>> English, too, once we're on this). In fact, it would be good to check 
>> whether the Russian construction is not a 19th century pattern copy 
>> from French.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> чт, 1 апр. 2021 г. в 08:33, Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez 
>> <olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu <mailto:olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu>>:
>>
>>     Dear all,
>>
>>     Sorry for not having been clearer in my previous email.
>>
>>     Yes, English 'once' is used in this way :)
>>
>>     I did not mention English and other European
>>     languages  because in Mandarin and the other Hmong-Mien languages
>>     I mentioned before, the second clause appears with another linker
>>     (lit. /on(c)e/........'(/and/) /then/').  Accordingly, these
>>     languages show some sort of correlative construction. Based on
>>     the languages of the sample, this usage of 'on(c)e' in a
>>     correlative construction is not common cross-linguistically. It
>>     seems that Hmong-Mien languages have copied this strategy with
>>     native material from Mandarin. This is some sort of 'pattern
>>     replication'. I was expecting to receive more answers concerned
>>     with languages spoken in this area in order to see if these
>>     languages have also copied this pattern from Mandarin.
>>
>>     Thank you in advance.
>>
>>     Best,
>>
>>     On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 8:37 PM Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez
>>     <olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu <mailto:olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>         Dear all,
>>
>>         I hope this message finds you well.
>>
>>         As I was consulting various sources, it seems that the
>>         numeral 'one' in the expression of 'as soon as' is not common
>>         cross-linguistically.
>>
>>         In my sample, this is attested in Standard Mandarin (i.e.
>>         /yī), /Xong (Hmong-Mien), and Iu Mien (Hmong-Mien). Are you
>>         aware of any other languages that express 'as soon as' in a
>>         similar way?
>>
>>         Thank you very much in advance.
>>
>>         Best,
>>
>>         -- 
>>         Jesús Olguín Martínez
>>         Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics
>>         /University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)/
>>         http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez
>>         <http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez>
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     Jesús Olguín Martínez
>>     Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics
>>     /University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)/
>>     http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez
>>     <http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez>
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>
> -- 
> Martin Haspelmath
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> Deutscher Platz 6
> D-04103 Leipzig
> https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522
>
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-- 
David Gil
  
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
  
Email: gil at shh.mpg.de
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091

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