[Lingtyp] Numeral 'one' and 'as soon as'
David Gil
gil at shh.mpg.de
Thu Apr 1 11:39:10 UTC 2021
Dear all,
While Martin talks of borrowing of pattern (i.e. calquing), I have just
recently become aware of a possible and rather strange, even bizarre,
borrowing of matter: English /once/ (in its use as 'as soon as') into
Hebrew, [wans]. At first I thought this was an instance of
Hebrew/English code-switching in (mostly academic) discussions; however,
I have recently heard it a couple of times in Hebrew-language
conversations which didn't seem to be likely venues for code-switching.
It's certainly not common usage; I wonder whether other speakers of
Hebrew following this exchange have noticed this.
For what it's worth, the usual Hebrew expression for 'as soon as' is
/be=regaʕ še= /(in=moment REL), which, unlike the common "European
substrate" languages for modern Hebrew, doesn't have a 'one' in it.
David
On 01/04/2021 12:39, Martin Haspelmath wrote:
> And it is only in this exchange that I realize that German /Mal/ 'time
> (in the sense of the French /fois/)' can be used in a somewhat similar
> way, in the combination /zumal/ (= /zu Mal/):
>
> /Ich werde gehen, zumal du so früh gekommen bist./
> 'I'll be leaving, as you came so early.'
>
> Maybe German also borrowed this from French in one way or another.
> (But note that /zumal/ only means '(in as much) as', i.e. it only has
> a causal sense.)
>
> (There are so many similarities among European languages that seem to
> be due to borrowing in one way or another...)
>
> Best,
> Martin
>
> Am 01.04.21 um 09:39 schrieb Michael Daniel:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> only in this exchange I realized that the Russian /раз/ 'time' (in
>> the sense of the French 'fois'), is used in a syntactically similar
>> construction but functionally different construction as introducing
>> cause complement clauses:
>>
>> /Раз ты пришел так рано, я пойду/.
>> As you came so early, I'll be leaving. (Lit. 'Time you.sg
>> <http://you.sg> come.Pst so early, I leave.Prs)
>>
>> Note that no numeral is used in these constructions, unlike what the
>> original query was looking for.
>>
>> But is the French "Une fois que" not somewhat similar to Russian in
>> this respect, in that it is not (only) used in the sense "as soon as"
>> but also to introduce subordinate clauses of cause? (And maybe
>> English, too, once we're on this). In fact, it would be good to check
>> whether the Russian construction is not a 19th century pattern copy
>> from French.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> чт, 1 апр. 2021 г. в 08:33, Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez
>> <olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu <mailto:olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu>>:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Sorry for not having been clearer in my previous email.
>>
>> Yes, English 'once' is used in this way :)
>>
>> I did not mention English and other European
>> languages because in Mandarin and the other Hmong-Mien languages
>> I mentioned before, the second clause appears with another linker
>> (lit. /on(c)e/........'(/and/) /then/'). Accordingly, these
>> languages show some sort of correlative construction. Based on
>> the languages of the sample, this usage of 'on(c)e' in a
>> correlative construction is not common cross-linguistically. It
>> seems that Hmong-Mien languages have copied this strategy with
>> native material from Mandarin. This is some sort of 'pattern
>> replication'. I was expecting to receive more answers concerned
>> with languages spoken in this area in order to see if these
>> languages have also copied this pattern from Mandarin.
>>
>> Thank you in advance.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 8:37 PM Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez
>> <olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu <mailto:olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I hope this message finds you well.
>>
>> As I was consulting various sources, it seems that the
>> numeral 'one' in the expression of 'as soon as' is not common
>> cross-linguistically.
>>
>> In my sample, this is attested in Standard Mandarin (i.e.
>> /yī), /Xong (Hmong-Mien), and Iu Mien (Hmong-Mien). Are you
>> aware of any other languages that express 'as soon as' in a
>> similar way?
>>
>> Thank you very much in advance.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> --
>> Jesús Olguín Martínez
>> Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics
>> /University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)/
>> http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez
>> <http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jesús Olguín Martínez
>> Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics
>> /University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)/
>> http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez
>> <http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez>
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>
> --
> Martin Haspelmath
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> Deutscher Platz 6
> D-04103 Leipzig
> https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522
>
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--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: gil at shh.mpg.de
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
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