[Lingtyp] Numeral 'one' and 'as soon as'

Thu Apr 1 12:07:05 UTC 2021

Yahgan u:koali 'one' and ku:ka 'same' (colon marks tenseness of preceding
vowel) may be etymologically related. ku:k(h)aitakun 'as soon as' may
contain ku:ka, kaia 'soon' (though it might also be analyzed as containing
haita, the irregular present tense version of haina 'go, walk', plus -kun,
which is the present participle suffix.  There just isn't enough material
recorded from when the language had a healthy number of fluent speakers to
know for sure.

Jess Tauber

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On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 7:40 AM David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> While Martin talks of borrowing of pattern (i.e. calquing), I have just
> recently become aware of a possible and rather strange, even bizarre,
> borrowing of matter:  English *once* (in its use as 'as soon as') into
> Hebrew, [wans].  At first I thought this was an instance of Hebrew/English
> code-switching in (mostly academic) discussions; however, I have recently
> heard it a couple of times in Hebrew-language conversations which didn't
> seem to be likely venues for code-switching.  It's certainly not common
> usage; I wonder whether other speakers of Hebrew following this exchange
> have noticed this.
>
> For what it's worth, the usual Hebrew expression for 'as soon as' is *be=regaʕ
> še= *(in=moment REL), which, unlike the common "European substrate"
> languages for modern Hebrew, doesn't have a 'one' in it.
>
> David
>
>
> On 01/04/2021 12:39, Martin Haspelmath wrote:
>
> And it is only in this exchange that I realize that German *Mal* 'time
> (in the sense of the French *fois*)' can be used in a somewhat similar
> way, in the combination *zumal* (= *zu Mal*):
>
> *Ich werde gehen, zumal du so früh gekommen bist.*
> 'I'll be leaving, as you came so early.'
>
> Maybe German also borrowed this from French in one way or another. (But
> note that *zumal* only means '(in as much) as', i.e. it only has a causal
> sense.)
>
> (There are so many similarities among European languages that seem to be
> due to borrowing in one way or another...)
>
> Best,
> Martin
>
> Am 01.04.21 um 09:39 schrieb Michael Daniel:
>
> Dear all,
>
> only in this exchange I realized that the Russian *раз* 'time' (in the
> sense of the French 'fois'), is used in a syntactically similar
> construction but functionally different construction as introducing cause
> complement clauses:
>
> *Раз ты пришел так рано, я пойду*.
> As you came so early, I'll be leaving. (Lit. 'Time you.sg come.Pst so
> early, I leave.Prs)
>
> Note that no numeral is used in these constructions, unlike what the
> original query was looking for.
>
> But is the French "Une fois que" not somewhat similar to Russian in this
> respect, in that it is not (only) used in the sense "as soon as" but also
> to introduce subordinate clauses of cause? (And maybe English, too, once
> we're on this). In fact, it would be good to check whether the Russian
> construction is not a 19th century pattern copy from French.
>
> Michael
>
> чт, 1 апр. 2021 г. в 08:33, Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <
> olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu>:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Sorry for not having been clearer in my previous email.
>>
>> Yes, English 'once' is used in this way :)
>>
>> I did not mention English and other European languages  because in
>> Mandarin and the other Hmong-Mien languages I mentioned before, the second
>> clause appears with another linker (lit. *on(c)e*........'(*and*) *then*').
>> Accordingly, these languages show some sort of correlative construction.
>> Based on the languages of the sample, this usage of 'on(c)e' in a
>> correlative construction is not common cross-linguistically. It seems that
>> Hmong-Mien languages have copied this strategy with native material from
>> Mandarin. This is some sort of 'pattern replication'. I was expecting to
>> receive more answers concerned with languages spoken in this area in
>> order to see if these languages have also copied this pattern from Mandarin.
>>
>> Thank you in advance.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 8:37 PM Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <
>> olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I hope this message finds you well.
>>>
>>> As I was consulting various sources, it seems that the numeral 'one' in
>>> the expression of 'as soon as' is not common cross-linguistically.
>>>
>>> In my sample, this is attested in Standard Mandarin (i.e. *yī), *Xong
>>> (Hmong-Mien), and Iu Mien (Hmong-Mien). Are you aware of any other
>>> languages that express 'as soon as' in a similar way?
>>>
>>> Thank you very much in advance.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jesús Olguín Martínez
>>> Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics
>>> *University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)*
>>> http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jesús Olguín Martínez
>> Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics
>> *University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)*
>> http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
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>
> --
> Martin Haspelmath
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> Deutscher Platz 6
> D-04103 Leipzighttps://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522
>
>
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>
> --
> David Gil
>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
>
> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de
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