[Lingtyp] Numeral 'one' and 'as soon as'

Thu Apr 1 13:05:18 UTC 2021

To add another rather obvious SAE example, Portuguese *uma vez que* and
Spanish *una vez que* also perform a correlative function.

On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 6:07 AM Jess Tauber <tetrahedralpt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yahgan u:koali 'one' and ku:ka 'same' (colon marks tenseness of preceding
> vowel) may be etymologically related. ku:k(h)aitakun 'as soon as' may
> contain ku:ka, kaia 'soon' (though it might also be analyzed as containing
> haita, the irregular present tense version of haina 'go, walk', plus -kun,
> which is the present participle suffix.  There just isn't enough material
> recorded from when the language had a healthy number of fluent speakers to
> know for sure.
>
> Jess Tauber
>
>
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> On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 7:40 AM David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> While Martin talks of borrowing of pattern (i.e. calquing), I have just
>> recently become aware of a possible and rather strange, even bizarre,
>> borrowing of matter:  English *once* (in its use as 'as soon as') into
>> Hebrew, [wans].  At first I thought this was an instance of Hebrew/English
>> code-switching in (mostly academic) discussions; however, I have recently
>> heard it a couple of times in Hebrew-language conversations which didn't
>> seem to be likely venues for code-switching.  It's certainly not common
>> usage; I wonder whether other speakers of Hebrew following this exchange
>> have noticed this.
>>
>> For what it's worth, the usual Hebrew expression for 'as soon as' is *be=regaʕ
>> še= *(in=moment REL), which, unlike the common "European substrate"
>> languages for modern Hebrew, doesn't have a 'one' in it.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> On 01/04/2021 12:39, Martin Haspelmath wrote:
>>
>> And it is only in this exchange that I realize that German *Mal* 'time
>> (in the sense of the French *fois*)' can be used in a somewhat similar
>> way, in the combination *zumal* (= *zu Mal*):
>>
>> *Ich werde gehen, zumal du so früh gekommen bist.*
>> 'I'll be leaving, as you came so early.'
>>
>> Maybe German also borrowed this from French in one way or another. (But
>> note that *zumal* only means '(in as much) as', i.e. it only has a
>> causal sense.)
>>
>> (There are so many similarities among European languages that seem to be
>> due to borrowing in one way or another...)
>>
>> Best,
>> Martin
>>
>> Am 01.04.21 um 09:39 schrieb Michael Daniel:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> only in this exchange I realized that the Russian *раз* 'time' (in the
>> sense of the French 'fois'), is used in a syntactically similar
>> construction but functionally different construction as introducing cause
>> complement clauses:
>>
>> *Раз ты пришел так рано, я пойду*.
>> As you came so early, I'll be leaving. (Lit. 'Time you.sg come.Pst so
>> early, I leave.Prs)
>>
>> Note that no numeral is used in these constructions, unlike what the
>> original query was looking for.
>>
>> But is the French "Une fois que" not somewhat similar to Russian in this
>> respect, in that it is not (only) used in the sense "as soon as" but also
>> to introduce subordinate clauses of cause? (And maybe English, too, once
>> we're on this). In fact, it would be good to check whether the Russian
>> construction is not a 19th century pattern copy from French.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> чт, 1 апр. 2021 г. в 08:33, Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <
>> olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu>:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> Sorry for not having been clearer in my previous email.
>>>
>>> Yes, English 'once' is used in this way :)
>>>
>>> I did not mention English and other European languages  because in
>>> Mandarin and the other Hmong-Mien languages I mentioned before, the second
>>> clause appears with another linker (lit. *on(c)e*........'(*and*) *then*').
>>> Accordingly, these languages show some sort of correlative construction.
>>> Based on the languages of the sample, this usage of 'on(c)e' in a
>>> correlative construction is not common cross-linguistically. It seems that
>>> Hmong-Mien languages have copied this strategy with native material from
>>> Mandarin. This is some sort of 'pattern replication'. I was expecting to
>>> receive more answers concerned with languages spoken in this area in
>>> order to see if these languages have also copied this pattern from Mandarin.
>>>
>>> Thank you in advance.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 8:37 PM Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <
>>> olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> I hope this message finds you well.
>>>>
>>>> As I was consulting various sources, it seems that the numeral 'one' in
>>>> the expression of 'as soon as' is not common cross-linguistically.
>>>>
>>>> In my sample, this is attested in Standard Mandarin (i.e. *yī), *Xong
>>>> (Hmong-Mien), and Iu Mien (Hmong-Mien). Are you aware of any other
>>>> languages that express 'as soon as' in a similar way?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much in advance.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jesús Olguín Martínez
>>>> Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics
>>>> *University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)*
>>>> http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jesús Olguín Martínez
>>> Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics
>>> *University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)*
>>> http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez
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>>
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>>
>> --
>> Martin Haspelmath
>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>> Deutscher Platz 6
>> D-04103 Leipzighttps://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522
>>
>>
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>> --
>> David Gil
>>
>> Senior Scientist (Associate)
>> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
>> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
>> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
>>
>> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de
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