[Lingtyp] To include xenophones or not

[Michael Fiddler]

I have to say, though that no one would consider [ʒ] to be a xenophone in
English, as it definitely restructured the English phonological system. No
one thinks of it as foreign except linguists in the know :-)!

Yes, absolutely! I was just thinking in terms of Ian's (maybe casual)
definition of xenophone as "phonemes that are only present in loanwords."
If the sound's perception as foreign by non-linguist native speakers is a
crucial part of the concept, that would definitely narrow the focus and
avoid excluding sounds we would obviously want to include.

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 10:30 AM Larry M. HYMAN <hyman at berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Hi Michael - Thanks for this. I have to say, though that no one would
> consider [ʒ] to be a xenophone in English, as it definitely
> restructured the English phonological system. No one thinks of it as
> foreign except linguists in the know :-)!  The fact that Ian brought up [x]
> was an extreme, as everyone would agree it has nothing to do with the
> English phonological system. Now one thing I forgot to ask/tell Ian is:
> What is the purpose of the database? Of course if it is intended also for
> the study of loan phonology/xenophones, then everything should be included
> with comment (including "English" [x]?).
>
> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 10:11 AM Michael Fiddler <mfiddler at ucsb.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dear Ian,
>>
>> I agree with Larry that there are marginal cases that could be worth
>> excluding, but if you're looking to make a binary choice I'd probably side
>> with Hartmut (and Bloch). A blanket ban on any phonemes that were
>> introduced via loanwords would exclude sounds that are clearly part of the
>> synchronic phonology in many cases. To take an obvious English example, it
>> would imply that any time a speaker produces a word like 'vision' or
>> 'measure' they are making a foreign [ʒ] sound that somehow doesn't truly
>> belong to the language. This seems particularly unhelpful in cases where a
>> massive portion of the lexicon is made up of loanwords dating back hundreds
>> of years, like the French/Latin loans in English, Chinese loans in
>> Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese, Arab/Persian loans in Uyghur, etc.
>>
>> If you have a more fine-grained way to indicate in your database the
>> difference between well-entrenched, frequent, and/or old loan phonemes and
>> marginal cases like sounds from very recent loanwords ('Facebook'), sounds
>> that are actually replaced by a native phoneme by many/most speakers
>> ('Bach'), or perhaps sounds with very low type/token frequency, such
>> information could be useful. Your final decision might also depend on the
>> specific purpose(s) of your database. But all other things equal, if you're
>> looking for a binary decision, it seems to me you'd do better to include
>> xenophones than leave them out.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:52 AM Larry M. HYMAN <hyman at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Ian,
>>>
>>> As a phonologist, what I would want to know is if the loanword phonology
>>> (sounds) had significantly affected the sound system. Your example of
>>> learnèd [x] in English seems rather clear to me--it should be left out.
>>> When I try to teach this sound and transcription to undergraduates with no
>>> linguistic background, I mention its pronunciation in "Bach" and "chutzpah"
>>> (in my speech). This doesn't seem to help much, as they do not
>>> pronounce Bach with [x] (let alone van Gogh :-)! On the other hand, it is
>>> useful to have this information for languages that have been in more
>>> sustained contact with others, e.g. all of the cases of English or Swahili
>>> creeping into Eastern Bantu languages that otherwise lack certain sounds in
>>> their native vocabulary. Your problem will be making such decisions for
>>> each language. I assume that if you include this information in your
>>> database you would identify which sounds are only in loanwords.
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 11:50 PM JOO, Ian [Student] <
>>> ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear typologists,
>>>>
>>>> I would like to seek your advice on a database I am making.
>>>> For my doctoral project, I am compiling a phonological database of 700+
>>>> Eurasian languages.
>>>> The database includes basic information such as the list of
>>>> word-finally permitted phonemes, maximal number of onsets in a syllable,
>>>> etc.
>>>> For this database, I would like your opinion on whether to include
>>>> xenophonic (loanword-phonological) information or not.
>>>> For example, should the database include phonemes that are only present
>>>> in loanwords (such as /x/ in English)?
>>>> If the language does not allow codas in native word/ but allow them in
>>>> loanwords, should that information be allowed as well?
>>>> If you were using the database, would you find such information helpful?
>>>>
>>>> Pros of adding the xenophonic information:
>>>> The database would be more complete. Some xenophonic features can be
>>>> very old (such as onset clusters in Tagalog, word-initial /r/ in Japanese,
>>>> etc.), so in a sense they are "nativized" (although they may be still
>>>> marked). If I mark the native phonology and the loanword phonology
>>>> distinctly in my database (e. g. Including /ts/ in French phonology but
>>>> specifying that it only appears in loanwords), then the user can use the
>>>> database with or without xenophonic information.
>>>>
>>>> Cons:
>>>> The problem of including xenophonic information is that, when
>>>> considering loanwords, it is difficult to judge what is part of a
>>>> language's phonology or not.
>>>> For example /f/ occurs in very recent Korean loanwords such as /f/ail
>>>> 'file' or /f/eyispwuk 'Facebook' and it's difficult to say if this is
>>>> really a part of Korean phonology.
>>>> Many minority language speakers are also fluent in their national
>>>> language (such as Russian or Spanish) and they may pronounce loanwords from
>>>> the national language in their 'original' pronunciation (such as Tuvan
>>>> speakers pronouncing Russian loanwords in Russian pronunciation) and it's
>>>> difficult to say if this means Russian phonology has fully integrated into
>>>> Tuvan phonology.
>>>> So where to divide the line between what is purely foreign and what has
>>>> been nativized?
>>>> On the other hand, distinguishing phonological features that are only
>>>> present in loanwords from those that are also present in native words is
>>>> quite straightforward and less controversial (although there is also the
>>>> problem that we do not always know if a word is a loanword or not).
>>>> Lastly, since I've already finished a good part of the database (about
>>>> 15%), if I want to also include xenophonic information then I would have to
>>>> go through the whole database again, so there's this practical issue.
>>>>
>>>> So I would appreciate your advice on whether including xenophonic
>>>> information would be substantially beneficial to you or not, if you were
>>>> using the database.
>>>>
>>>> From Hong Kong,
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Disclaimer:*
>>>>
>>>> *This message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>>>> information intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not
>>>> the intended recipient, you should delete this message and notify the
>>>> sender and The Hong Kong Polytechnic University (the University)
>>>> immediately. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or
>>>> the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited and may be
>>>> unlawful.*
>>>>
>>>> *The University specifically denies any responsibility for the accuracy
>>>> or quality of information obtained through University E-mail Facilities.
>>>> Any views and opinions expressed are only those of the author(s) and do not
>>>> necessarily represent those of the University and the University accepts no
>>>> liability whatsoever for any losses or damages incurred or caused to any
>>>> party as a result of the use of such information.*
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Director, France-Berkeley Fund
>>> University of California, Berkeley
>>> https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Fiddler
>> PhD student
>> Department of Linguistics
>> University of California, Santa Barbara
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:52 AM Larry M. HYMAN <hyman at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Ian,
>>>
>>> As a phonologist, what I would want to know is if the loanword phonology
>>> (sounds) had significantly affected the sound system. Your example of
>>> learnèd [x] in English seems rather clear to me--it should be left out.
>>> When I try to teach this sound and transcription to undergraduates with no
>>> linguistic background, I mention its pronunciation in "Bach" and "chutzpah"
>>> (in my speech). This doesn't seem to help much, as they do not
>>> pronounce Bach with [x] (let alone van Gogh :-)! On the other hand, it is
>>> useful to have this information for languages that have been in more
>>> sustained contact with others, e.g. all of the cases of English or Swahili
>>> creeping into Eastern Bantu languages that otherwise lack certain sounds in
>>> their native vocabulary. Your problem will be making such decisions for
>>> each language. I assume that if you include this information in your
>>> database you would identify which sounds are only in loanwords.
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 11:50 PM JOO, Ian [Student] <
>>> ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear typologists,
>>>>
>>>> I would like to seek your advice on a database I am making.
>>>> For my doctoral project, I am compiling a phonological database of 700+
>>>> Eurasian languages.
>>>> The database includes basic information such as the list of
>>>> word-finally permitted phonemes, maximal number of onsets in a syllable,
>>>> etc.
>>>> For this database, I would like your opinion on whether to include
>>>> xenophonic (loanword-phonological) information or not.
>>>> For example, should the database include phonemes that are only present
>>>> in loanwords (such as /x/ in English)?
>>>> If the language does not allow codas in native word/ but allow them in
>>>> loanwords, should that information be allowed as well?
>>>> If you were using the database, would you find such information helpful?
>>>>
>>>> Pros of adding the xenophonic information:
>>>> The database would be more complete. Some xenophonic features can be
>>>> very old (such as onset clusters in Tagalog, word-initial /r/ in Japanese,
>>>> etc.), so in a sense they are "nativized" (although they may be still
>>>> marked). If I mark the native phonology and the loanword phonology
>>>> distinctly in my database (e. g. Including /ts/ in French phonology but
>>>> specifying that it only appears in loanwords), then the user can use the
>>>> database with or without xenophonic information.
>>>>
>>>> Cons:
>>>> The problem of including xenophonic information is that, when
>>>> considering loanwords, it is difficult to judge what is part of a
>>>> language's phonology or not.
>>>> For example /f/ occurs in very recent Korean loanwords such as /f/ail
>>>> 'file' or /f/eyispwuk 'Facebook' and it's difficult to say if this is
>>>> really a part of Korean phonology.
>>>> Many minority language speakers are also fluent in their national
>>>> language (such as Russian or Spanish) and they may pronounce loanwords from
>>>> the national language in their 'original' pronunciation (such as Tuvan
>>>> speakers pronouncing Russian loanwords in Russian pronunciation) and it's
>>>> difficult to say if this means Russian phonology has fully integrated into
>>>> Tuvan phonology.
>>>> So where to divide the line between what is purely foreign and what has
>>>> been nativized?
>>>> On the other hand, distinguishing phonological features that are only
>>>> present in loanwords from those that are also present in native words is
>>>> quite straightforward and less controversial (although there is also the
>>>> problem that we do not always know if a word is a loanword or not).
>>>> Lastly, since I've already finished a good part of the database (about
>>>> 15%), if I want to also include xenophonic information then I would have to
>>>> go through the whole database again, so there's this practical issue.
>>>>
>>>> So I would appreciate your advice on whether including xenophonic
>>>> information would be substantially beneficial to you or not, if you were
>>>> using the database.
>>>>
>>>> From Hong Kong,
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Disclaimer:*
>>>>
>>>> *This message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>>>> information intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not
>>>> the intended recipient, you should delete this message and notify the
>>>> sender and The Hong Kong Polytechnic University (the University)
>>>> immediately. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or
>>>> the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited and may be
>>>> unlawful.*
>>>>
>>>> *The University specifically denies any responsibility for the accuracy
>>>> or quality of information obtained through University E-mail Facilities.
>>>> Any views and opinions expressed are only those of the author(s) and do not
>>>> necessarily represent those of the University and the University accepts no
>>>> liability whatsoever for any losses or damages incurred or caused to any
>>>> party as a result of the use of such information.*
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Director, France-Berkeley Fund
>>> University of California, Berkeley
>>> https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Director, France-Berkeley Fund
> University of California, Berkeley
> https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman
>
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