[Lingtyp] To include xenophones or not

Thu Dec 2 18:11:18 UTC 2021

Dear Ian,

I agree with Larry that there are marginal cases that could be worth
excluding, but if you're looking to make a binary choice I'd probably side
with Hartmut (and Bloch). A blanket ban on any phonemes that were
introduced via loanwords would exclude sounds that are clearly part of the
synchronic phonology in many cases. To take an obvious English example, it
would imply that any time a speaker produces a word like 'vision' or
'measure' they are making a foreign [ʒ] sound that somehow doesn't truly
belong to the language. This seems particularly unhelpful in cases where a
massive portion of the lexicon is made up of loanwords dating back hundreds
of years, like the French/Latin loans in English, Chinese loans in
Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese, Arab/Persian loans in Uyghur, etc.

If you have a more fine-grained way to indicate in your database the
difference between well-entrenched, frequent, and/or old loan phonemes and
marginal cases like sounds from very recent loanwords ('Facebook'), sounds
that are actually replaced by a native phoneme by many/most speakers
('Bach'), or perhaps sounds with very low type/token frequency, such
information could be useful. Your final decision might also depend on the
specific purpose(s) of your database. But all other things equal, if you're
looking for a binary decision, it seems to me you'd do better to include
xenophones than leave them out.

Cheers!
Michael

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:52 AM Larry M. HYMAN <hyman at berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Dear Ian,
>
> As a phonologist, what I would want to know is if the loanword phonology
> (sounds) had significantly affected the sound system. Your example of
> learnèd [x] in English seems rather clear to me--it should be left out.
> When I try to teach this sound and transcription to undergraduates with no
> linguistic background, I mention its pronunciation in "Bach" and "chutzpah"
> (in my speech). This doesn't seem to help much, as they do not
> pronounce Bach with [x] (let alone van Gogh :-)! On the other hand, it is
> useful to have this information for languages that have been in more
> sustained contact with others, e.g. all of the cases of English or Swahili
> creeping into Eastern Bantu languages that otherwise lack certain sounds in
> their native vocabulary. Your problem will be making such decisions for
> each language. I assume that if you include this information in your
> database you would identify which sounds are only in loanwords.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Larry
>
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 11:50 PM JOO, Ian [Student] <
> ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk> wrote:
>
>> Dear typologists,
>>
>> I would like to seek your advice on a database I am making.
>> For my doctoral project, I am compiling a phonological database of 700+
>> Eurasian languages.
>> The database includes basic information such as the list of word-finally
>> permitted phonemes, maximal number of onsets in a syllable, etc.
>> For this database, I would like your opinion on whether to include
>> xenophonic (loanword-phonological) information or not.
>> For example, should the database include phonemes that are only present
>> in loanwords (such as /x/ in English)?
>> If the language does not allow codas in native word/ but allow them in
>> loanwords, should that information be allowed as well?
>> If you were using the database, would you find such information helpful?
>>
>> Pros of adding the xenophonic information:
>> The database would be more complete. Some xenophonic features can be very
>> old (such as onset clusters in Tagalog, word-initial /r/ in Japanese,
>> etc.), so in a sense they are "nativized" (although they may be still
>> marked). If I mark the native phonology and the loanword phonology
>> distinctly in my database (e. g. Including /ts/ in French phonology but
>> specifying that it only appears in loanwords), then the user can use the
>> database with or without xenophonic information.
>>
>> Cons:
>> The problem of including xenophonic information is that, when considering
>> loanwords, it is difficult to judge what is part of a language's phonology
>> or not.
>> For example /f/ occurs in very recent Korean loanwords such as /f/ail
>> 'file' or /f/eyispwuk 'Facebook' and it's difficult to say if this is
>> really a part of Korean phonology.
>> Many minority language speakers are also fluent in their national
>> language (such as Russian or Spanish) and they may pronounce loanwords from
>> the national language in their 'original' pronunciation (such as Tuvan
>> speakers pronouncing Russian loanwords in Russian pronunciation) and it's
>> difficult to say if this means Russian phonology has fully integrated into
>> Tuvan phonology.
>> So where to divide the line between what is purely foreign and what has
>> been nativized?
>> On the other hand, distinguishing phonological features that are only
>> present in loanwords from those that are also present in native words is
>> quite straightforward and less controversial (although there is also the
>> problem that we do not always know if a word is a loanword or not).
>> Lastly, since I've already finished a good part of the database (about
>> 15%), if I want to also include xenophonic information then I would have to
>> go through the whole database again, so there's this practical issue.
>>
>> So I would appreciate your advice on whether including xenophonic
>> information would be substantially beneficial to you or not, if you were
>> using the database.
>>
>> From Hong Kong,
>> Ian
>>
>>
>> *Disclaimer:*
>>
>> *This message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>> information intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not
>> the intended recipient, you should delete this message and notify the
>> sender and The Hong Kong Polytechnic University (the University)
>> immediately. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or
>> the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited and may be
>> unlawful.*
>>
>> *The University specifically denies any responsibility for the accuracy
>> or quality of information obtained through University E-mail Facilities.
>> Any views and opinions expressed are only those of the author(s) and do not
>> necessarily represent those of the University and the University accepts no
>> liability whatsoever for any losses or damages incurred or caused to any
>> party as a result of the use of such information.*
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>
>
> --
> Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Director, France-Berkeley Fund
> University of California, Berkeley
> https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>

-- 
Michael Fiddler
PhD student
Department of Linguistics
University of California, Santa Barbara

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:52 AM Larry M. HYMAN <hyman at berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Dear Ian,
>
> As a phonologist, what I would want to know is if the loanword phonology
> (sounds) had significantly affected the sound system. Your example of
> learnèd [x] in English seems rather clear to me--it should be left out.
> When I try to teach this sound and transcription to undergraduates with no
> linguistic background, I mention its pronunciation in "Bach" and "chutzpah"
> (in my speech). This doesn't seem to help much, as they do not
> pronounce Bach with [x] (let alone van Gogh :-)! On the other hand, it is
> useful to have this information for languages that have been in more
> sustained contact with others, e.g. all of the cases of English or Swahili
> creeping into Eastern Bantu languages that otherwise lack certain sounds in
> their native vocabulary. Your problem will be making such decisions for
> each language. I assume that if you include this information in your
> database you would identify which sounds are only in loanwords.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Larry
>
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 11:50 PM JOO, Ian [Student] <
> ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk> wrote:
>
>> Dear typologists,
>>
>> I would like to seek your advice on a database I am making.
>> For my doctoral project, I am compiling a phonological database of 700+
>> Eurasian languages.
>> The database includes basic information such as the list of word-finally
>> permitted phonemes, maximal number of onsets in a syllable, etc.
>> For this database, I would like your opinion on whether to include
>> xenophonic (loanword-phonological) information or not.
>> For example, should the database include phonemes that are only present
>> in loanwords (such as /x/ in English)?
>> If the language does not allow codas in native word/ but allow them in
>> loanwords, should that information be allowed as well?
>> If you were using the database, would you find such information helpful?
>>
>> Pros of adding the xenophonic information:
>> The database would be more complete. Some xenophonic features can be very
>> old (such as onset clusters in Tagalog, word-initial /r/ in Japanese,
>> etc.), so in a sense they are "nativized" (although they may be still
>> marked). If I mark the native phonology and the loanword phonology
>> distinctly in my database (e. g. Including /ts/ in French phonology but
>> specifying that it only appears in loanwords), then the user can use the
>> database with or without xenophonic information.
>>
>> Cons:
>> The problem of including xenophonic information is that, when considering
>> loanwords, it is difficult to judge what is part of a language's phonology
>> or not.
>> For example /f/ occurs in very recent Korean loanwords such as /f/ail
>> 'file' or /f/eyispwuk 'Facebook' and it's difficult to say if this is
>> really a part of Korean phonology.
>> Many minority language speakers are also fluent in their national
>> language (such as Russian or Spanish) and they may pronounce loanwords from
>> the national language in their 'original' pronunciation (such as Tuvan
>> speakers pronouncing Russian loanwords in Russian pronunciation) and it's
>> difficult to say if this means Russian phonology has fully integrated into
>> Tuvan phonology.
>> So where to divide the line between what is purely foreign and what has
>> been nativized?
>> On the other hand, distinguishing phonological features that are only
>> present in loanwords from those that are also present in native words is
>> quite straightforward and less controversial (although there is also the
>> problem that we do not always know if a word is a loanword or not).
>> Lastly, since I've already finished a good part of the database (about
>> 15%), if I want to also include xenophonic information then I would have to
>> go through the whole database again, so there's this practical issue.
>>
>> So I would appreciate your advice on whether including xenophonic
>> information would be substantially beneficial to you or not, if you were
>> using the database.
>>
>> From Hong Kong,
>> Ian
>>
>>
>> *Disclaimer:*
>>
>> *This message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>> information intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not
>> the intended recipient, you should delete this message and notify the
>> sender and The Hong Kong Polytechnic University (the University)
>> immediately. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or
>> the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited and may be
>> unlawful.*
>>
>> *The University specifically denies any responsibility for the accuracy
>> or quality of information obtained through University E-mail Facilities.
>> Any views and opinions expressed are only those of the author(s) and do not
>> necessarily represent those of the University and the University accepts no
>> liability whatsoever for any losses or damages incurred or caused to any
>> party as a result of the use of such information.*
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>
>
> --
> Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Director, France-Berkeley Fund
> University of California, Berkeley
> https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
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