[Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (Eline Visser)

Thu Dec 16 08:11:05 UTC 2021

Dear Riccardo/Nina,

Kalamang has a suffix -kon on the verb in curses, which I have left unglossed in my PhD thesis (discussion of curses and swearing on p. 479-481, download at https://portal.research.lu.se/en/publications/a-grammar-of-kalamang-the-papuan-language-of-the-karas-islands). It seems analogous to the Kazakh example.

The template is: subject=FOC object consume=IRR-kon/liver-cut-IRR-kon.

In the place of the subject one can have malaikat 'angel', penyakit 'illness', damir 'taboo', yuon 'sun' or sileng 'cursed fish'.

yuon=ba kat min-tolmar=et-kon
sun=FOC 2SG.OBJ liver-cut=IRR-?
'May the sun cut out your liver!'

Eline

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Wednesday, December 15th, 2021 at 4:57 PM, <lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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> 1.  Re: Grammatical marking of insults (?) (Nina Dobrushina)
> 2.  Re: Grammatical marking of insults (?) (Riccardo Giomi)
> 3.  Re: Grammatical marking of insults (?) (Paolo Ramat)
> 4.  Re: Grammatical marking of insults (?) (Maia Ponsonnet)
> 5.  Re: Grammatical marking of insults (?) (Paolo Ramat)
>
>
> Message: 1
>
> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 14:37:02 +0300
>
> From: Nina Dobrushina nina.dobrushina at gmail.com
>
> To: Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it
>
> Cc: rgiomi at campus.ul.pt, "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>
> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Message-ID:
>
> CAEod8u5W31=WFFci0a-JA8Qv5q4-ZE8cACHtMfLAxGsAvsixOQ at mail.gmail.com
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Riccardo and all,
>
> If you are interested in curses as well, there is a paper by Sasha
>
> Aikhenvald which discusses this for Tariana and Manambu.
>
> Aikhenvald, Alexandra Y.. "3. “Damn your eyes!” (Not really): Imperative
>
> imprecatives, and curses as commands". Swearing and Cursing, edited by Nico
>
> Nassenstein and Anne Storch, Berlin, Boston: De Gruyter Mouton, 2020, pp.
>
> 53-78.
>
> To this, I can add Kazakh (Tukic), which has dedicated form for bad wishes:
>
> арам қат-қыр
>
> aram qat-qyr
>
> filthy freeze.up-MAL.OPT
>
> Drop dead. (Die filthy = pagan)
>
> By the way, I will be glad to get more examples of languages which have
>
> something like that - dedicated form to express curses.
>
> Best,
>
> Nina
>
> https://www.hse.ru/en/staff/dobrushina
>
> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 2:23 PM Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it wrote:
>
> > Dear Riccardo, Randy and Maia,
> >
> > I agree with Riccardo's argument: it is theoretically possible to imagine
> >
> > a language that has grammaticalized only negative, derogatory and insulting
> >
> > constructs: are there examples of this language type? Which could be the
> >
> > morphological/syntactic means for such a grammaticalization ? And Riccardo
> >
> > is right in considering pezzo as the head of the construct (though, in
> >
> > my Italian idiolect, I don't find unacceptable *brutta pezzo di cretina, i.e.,
> >
> > roughly, [ [brutta]ADJ.F [pezzo di cretina] ]NP.F ). To Randy's
> >
> > wondering: not being an Engl. native speaker I can't say whether 'piece
> >
> > of shit' is a borrowing from Ital. pezzo di merda (decidedly not a
> >
> > funny phrase !). *We need looking into historical dictionaries/corpora
> >
> > of both languages
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Paolo
> >
> > piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
> >
> > ##39 0382 27027
> >
> > 347 044 98 44
> >
> > Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 11:39 Riccardo Giomi <
> >
> > rgiomi at campus.ul.pt> ha scritto:
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for a nice set of data and references. This will be
> > >
> > > extremely useful.
> > >
> > > I will reply to some of you privately, asking for further
> > >
> > > comments/data/references. In the mean time, any further feedback is of
> > >
> > > course more than welcome!
> > >
> > > @Maia & Paolo: I agree with Paolo that pezzo di / espèce de are not
> > >
> > > grammaticalized, although not for the reason he mentions. After all the
> > >
> > > working hypothesis is precisely that languages can have grammaticalized
> > >
> > > means of marking a speech act as an insult, so, according to this
> > >
> > > hypothesis, the fact that pezzo di X never occurs with positively
> > >
> > > connotated epithets does not entail that the construction is not
> > >
> > > grammaticalized.
> > >
> > > A different type of argument for regarding these as lexical constructions
> > >
> > > is the fact that premodifying adjectives must agree with *pezzo *and not
> > >
> > > with the epithet (and I guess the same goes for French espèce), cf. brutto
> > >
> > > pezzo di cretina, as opposed to *brutta pezzo di cretina. This
> > >
> > > suggests that *pezzo *is the head of the construction; if it had been a
> > >
> > > grammaticalized element, I suppose agreement would have been with the
> > >
> > > epithet. At any rate, these nouns are not really reserved for marking a
> > >
> > > speech act as an insult -- they can also occur in other types of speech
> > >
> > > act, e.g. declarative *Quel pezzo di X mi ha rubato la bici *(roughly,
> > >
> > > 'That dirty X stole my bike').
> > >
> > > Best wishes to all,
> > >
> > > Riccardo
> > >
> > > Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it escreveu no dia quarta, 15/12/2021 à(s)
> > >
> > > 11:03:
> > >
> > > > In Italian too *pezzo di X *'espèce de X' , as in *pezzo di idiota and
> > > >
> > > > the very insulting, derogating (but very much used) pezzo di merda, *appears
> > > >
> > > > just in derogating expressions: you will never hear * *pezzo di genio,
> > > >
> > > > nor *pezzo di benefattore ! *This is, I think, an argument for not
> > > >
> > > > considering the construct *'pezzo di X ' *as belonging to the grammar
> > > >
> > > > (Maia).
> > > >
> > > > Paolo
> > > >
> > > > Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat
> > > >
> > > > Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente
> > > >
> > > > 'Academia Europaea'
> > > >
> > > > 'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member
> > > >
> > > > Università di Pavia (retired)
> > > >
> > > > Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)
> > > >
> > > > piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
> > > >
> > > > ##39 0382 27027
> > > >
> > > > 347 044 98 44
> > > >
> > > > Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 07:48 Nigel Vincent <
> > > >
> > > > nigel.vincent at manchester.ac.uk> ha scritto:
> > > >
> > > > > Maia is of course right that the English 'you X' is a way of insulting
> > > > >
> > > > > people but that depends on X being an insult. The same construction can be
> > > > >
> > > > > used to praise: 'you genius', 'you darling', etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nigel
> > > > >
> > > > > Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE
> > > > >
> > > > > Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics
> > > > >
> > > > > The University of Manchester
> > > > >
> > > > > Linguistics & English Language
> > > > >
> > > > > School of Arts, Languages and Cultures
> > > > >
> > > > > The University of Manchester
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf
> > > > >
> > > > > of Maia Ponsonnet maia.ponsonnet at uwa.edu.au
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent: 15 December 2021 1:54 AM
> > > > >
> > > > > To: Jussi Ylikoski jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi;
> > > > >
> > > > > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > Doesn't the English "you idiot" (you [insult]) qualify as an example?
> > > > >
> > > > > Copula-free adposition is not standard in English predication, and it
> > > > >
> > > > > seems largely limited to second person sing and derogatory adjectives?
> > > > >
> > > > > French has "espèce d'idiot" - not sure whether it qualifies as
> > > > >
> > > > > grammatical or lexical.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers, Maïa
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr Maïa Ponsonnet
> > > > >
> > > > > Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics
> > > > >
> > > > > Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences
> > > > >
> > > > > Building M257, Room 2.36
> > > > >
> > > > > The University of Western Australia
> > > > >
> > > > > 35 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA (6009), Australia
> > > > >
> > > > > P. +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - M. +61 (0) 468 571 030
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf
> > > > >
> > > > > of Jussi Ylikoski jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 15 December 2021 6:09 AM
> > > > >
> > > > > To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> > > > >
> > > > > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Riccardo and all,
> > > > >
> > > > > D’Avis and Meibauer's paper "Du Idiot! Din idiot! Pseudo-vocative
> > > > >
> > > > > constructions and insults in German (and Swedish)" (
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110304176.189/html
> > > > >
> > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.degruyter.com%2Fdocument%2Fdoi%2F10.1515%2F9783110304176.189%2Fhtml&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=Qm0dhs6L0wUoC0ozwJeshZnGlztNFYs2tB0%2FwjH91yo%3D&reserved=0)
> > > > >
> > > > > might be of interest; see also the thirty studies referring to this paper
> > > > >
> > > > > according to Google Scholar:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=9645899484374998601
> > > > >
> > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fcites%3D9645899484374998601&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=SiEIXLU6h58y3oPt6JDnSMiqxAD9CDEmDdvrhfbB%2F64%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >
> > > > > (and so forth).
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Jussi
> > > > >
> > > > > Frá: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org fyrir hönd
> > > > >
> > > > > Sebastian Nordhoff sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent: þriðjudagur, 14. desember 2021 22:50
> > > > >
> > > > > Til: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> > > > >
> > > > > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > Efni: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Riccardo,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sinhala has several levels of politeness in imperatives (marked by
> > > > >
> > > > > affixes), one of which would be rendered as "Do X, you $#!% !!!". I
> > > > >
> > > > > once
> > > > >
> > > > > nearly got beaten up when underestimating the impact that the use of
> > > > >
> > > > > this form can have. I can look up the reference if you want to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes
> > > > >
> > > > > Sebastian
> > > > >
> > > > > On 12/14/21 19:49, Riccardo Giomi wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A student of mine would like to investigate the linguistic coding of
> > > > > >
> > > > > > insults across languages. She is particularly interested in finding
> > > > > >
> > > > > > out
> > > > > >
> > > > > > whether languages can have dedicated (uses of) grammatical
> > > > > >
> > > > > > forms/constructions for this specific purpose. The best example I
> > > > > >
> > > > > > could
> > > > > >
> > > > > > come up with so far is the use of the Portuguese third person
> > > > > >
> > > > > > reflexive
> > > > > >
> > > > > > possessive adjective (determiner in Brazilian Portuguese) /seu/sua/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > with
> > > > > >
> > > > > > epithets which are meant as insults. An example would be
> > > > > >
> > > > > > /Cala=te, seu burro!/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > shut.up.IMP.2.SG <http://shut.up.IMP.2.SG
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshut.up.imp.2.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=Wsd38z3IS7%2FaqTyJkGPUkncKamWvN1IwGXTun%2F7NpTI%3D&reserved=0>=2.SG.OBJ
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3.SG.REFL.POSS
> > > > > >
> > > > > > donkey.M.SG <http://donkey.M.SG
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdonkey.m.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=DAnllkzoCwHEhKOA07WYqh25abAsY2i7%2Fp4%2Bmj134VM%3D&reserved=0
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'Shut up, you idiot!'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (Where, funnily enough, the third person of the adjective/determiner
> > > > > >
> > > > > > is
> > > > > >
> > > > > > presumably the polite form!) This is an interesting case, I think,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > because as far as I can see you never use /seu/sua /in 'plain'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > vocatives, nor with terms of endearment, nor, for that matter, with
> > > > > >
> > > > > > NPs
> > > > > >
> > > > > > which are not used as invocations.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am wondering whether anyone is aware of a language which has some
> > > > > >
> > > > > > grammaticalized form or construction that can be used in this
> > > > > >
> > > > > > specific
> > > > > >
> > > > > > way. Note that I am not interested in, say, abusive pronouns or
> > > > > >
> > > > > > honorifics or general expressions of the speaker's disappointment
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ('frustrative' markers) but only in grammaticalized means of marking
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >
> > > > > > speech act as an insult.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Many thanks in advance and best wishes to all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Riccardo
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Riccardo Giomi, Ph.D.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > University of Liège
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Département de langues modernes : linguistique, littérature et
> > > > > >
> > > > > > traduction
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Research group /Linguistique contrastive et typologie des langues/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > F.R.S.-FNRS Postdoctoral fellow (CR - FC 43095)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > //
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lingtyp mailing list
> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
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> > > > >
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> --
>
> Nina Dobrushina
>
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> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 12:38:15 +0100
>
> From: Riccardo Giomi rgiomi at campus.ul.pt
>
> To: Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it
>
> Cc: Nigel Vincent nigel.vincent at manchester.ac.uk,
>
>     "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>     <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Message-ID:
>
> CA+KJqQHZ6fyDfF+qXx1XXPrPdFzCpL01AvUWwNLj0LRF_xnNkQ at mail.gmail.com
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Paolo,
>
> it is theoretically possible to imagine a language that has grammaticalized
>
> > only negative, derogatory and insulting constructs: are there examples of
> >
> > this language type? Which could be the morphological/syntactic means for
> >
> > such a grammaticalization ?
>
> Well, judging from the data presented so far in this thread, I would say
>
> that the following are the best cadidates for the status of 'insultive
>
> illocution' markers:
>
> -   Portuguese seu/sua;
> -   Tukang Besi postpositive -'u;
> -   Finnish senkin;
> -   Swedish din;
>
>     *- *Chinese ni ge;
>
>     *- *Spanish so.
>
>     (For the time being, I would exclude the Persian construction *?ey +
>
>     *derogatory
>
>     epithet, because *?ey *is described by Mohammad as a general vocative word,
>
>     and the insulting effect seems to be contributed independently by the
>
>     lexical meaning of the epithet.)
>
>     But of course further verification is needed for (some of) these
>
>     constructions, as well as for various other expression patterns mentioned
>
>     so far.
>
>     Best,
>
>     R
>
> > piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
> >
> > ##39 0382 27027
> >
> > 347 044 98 44
> >
> > Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 11:39 Riccardo Giomi <
> >
> > rgiomi at campus.ul.pt> ha scritto:
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for a nice set of data and references. This will be
> > >
> > > extremely useful.
> > >
> > > I will reply to some of you privately, asking for further
> > >
> > > comments/data/references. In the mean time, any further feedback is of
> > >
> > > course more than welcome!
> > >
> > > @Maia & Paolo: I agree with Paolo that pezzo di / espèce de are not
> > >
> > > grammaticalized, although not for the reason he mentions. After all the
> > >
> > > working hypothesis is precisely that languages can have grammaticalized
> > >
> > > means of marking a speech act as an insult, so, according to this
> > >
> > > hypothesis, the fact that pezzo di X never occurs with positively
> > >
> > > connotated epithets does not entail that the construction is not
> > >
> > > grammaticalized.
> > >
> > > A different type of argument for regarding these as lexical constructions
> > >
> > > is the fact that premodifying adjectives must agree with *pezzo *and not
> > >
> > > with the epithet (and I guess the same goes for French espèce), cf. brutto
> > >
> > > pezzo di cretina, as opposed to *brutta pezzo di cretina. This
> > >
> > > suggests that *pezzo *is the head of the construction; if it had been a
> > >
> > > grammaticalized element, I suppose agreement would have been with the
> > >
> > > epithet. At any rate, these nouns are not really reserved for marking a
> > >
> > > speech act as an insult -- they can also occur in other types of speech
> > >
> > > act, e.g. declarative *Quel pezzo di X mi ha rubato la bici *(roughly,
> > >
> > > 'That dirty X stole my bike').
> > >
> > > Best wishes to all,
> > >
> > > Riccardo
> > >
> > > Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it escreveu no dia quarta, 15/12/2021 à(s)
> > >
> > > 11:03:
> > >
> > > > In Italian too *pezzo di X *'espèce de X' , as in *pezzo di idiota and
> > > >
> > > > the very insulting, derogating (but very much used) pezzo di merda, *appears
> > > >
> > > > just in derogating expressions: you will never hear * *pezzo di genio,
> > > >
> > > > nor *pezzo di benefattore ! *This is, I think, an argument for not
> > > >
> > > > considering the construct *'pezzo di X ' *as belonging to the grammar
> > > >
> > > > (Maia).
> > > >
> > > > Paolo
> > > >
> > > > Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat
> > > >
> > > > Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente
> > > >
> > > > 'Academia Europaea'
> > > >
> > > > 'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member
> > > >
> > > > Università di Pavia (retired)
> > > >
> > > > Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)
> > > >
> > > > piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
> > > >
> > > > ##39 0382 27027
> > > >
> > > > 347 044 98 44
> > > >
> > > > Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 07:48 Nigel Vincent <
> > > >
> > > > nigel.vincent at manchester.ac.uk> ha scritto:
> > > >
> > > > > Maia is of course right that the English 'you X' is a way of insulting
> > > > >
> > > > > people but that depends on X being an insult. The same construction can be
> > > > >
> > > > > used to praise: 'you genius', 'you darling', etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nigel
> > > > >
> > > > > Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE
> > > > >
> > > > > Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics
> > > > >
> > > > > The University of Manchester
> > > > >
> > > > > Linguistics & English Language
> > > > >
> > > > > School of Arts, Languages and Cultures
> > > > >
> > > > > The University of Manchester
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf
> > > > >
> > > > > of Maia Ponsonnet maia.ponsonnet at uwa.edu.au
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent: 15 December 2021 1:54 AM
> > > > >
> > > > > To: Jussi Ylikoski jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi;
> > > > >
> > > > > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > Doesn't the English "you idiot" (you [insult]) qualify as an example?
> > > > >
> > > > > Copula-free adposition is not standard in English predication, and it
> > > > >
> > > > > seems largely limited to second person sing and derogatory adjectives?
> > > > >
> > > > > French has "espèce d'idiot" - not sure whether it qualifies as
> > > > >
> > > > > grammatical or lexical.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers, Maïa
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr Maïa Ponsonnet
> > > > >
> > > > > Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics
> > > > >
> > > > > Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences
> > > > >
> > > > > Building M257, Room 2.36
> > > > >
> > > > > The University of Western Australia
> > > > >
> > > > > 35 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA (6009), Australia
> > > > >
> > > > > P. +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - M. +61 (0) 468 571 030
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf
> > > > >
> > > > > of Jussi Ylikoski jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 15 December 2021 6:09 AM
> > > > >
> > > > > To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> > > > >
> > > > > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Riccardo and all,
> > > > >
> > > > > D’Avis and Meibauer's paper "Du Idiot! Din idiot! Pseudo-vocative
> > > > >
> > > > > constructions and insults in German (and Swedish)" (
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110304176.189/html
> > > > >
> > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.degruyter.com%2Fdocument%2Fdoi%2F10.1515%2F9783110304176.189%2Fhtml&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=Qm0dhs6L0wUoC0ozwJeshZnGlztNFYs2tB0%2FwjH91yo%3D&reserved=0)
> > > > >
> > > > > might be of interest; see also the thirty studies referring to this paper
> > > > >
> > > > > according to Google Scholar:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=9645899484374998601
> > > > >
> > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fcites%3D9645899484374998601&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=SiEIXLU6h58y3oPt6JDnSMiqxAD9CDEmDdvrhfbB%2F64%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >
> > > > > (and so forth).
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Jussi
> > > > >
> > > > > Frá: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org fyrir hönd
> > > > >
> > > > > Sebastian Nordhoff sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent: þriðjudagur, 14. desember 2021 22:50
> > > > >
> > > > > Til: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> > > > >
> > > > > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > Efni: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Riccardo,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sinhala has several levels of politeness in imperatives (marked by
> > > > >
> > > > > affixes), one of which would be rendered as "Do X, you $#!% !!!". I
> > > > >
> > > > > once
> > > > >
> > > > > nearly got beaten up when underestimating the impact that the use of
> > > > >
> > > > > this form can have. I can look up the reference if you want to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes
> > > > >
> > > > > Sebastian
> > > > >
> > > > > On 12/14/21 19:49, Riccardo Giomi wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A student of mine would like to investigate the linguistic coding of
> > > > > >
> > > > > > insults across languages. She is particularly interested in finding
> > > > > >
> > > > > > out
> > > > > >
> > > > > > whether languages can have dedicated (uses of) grammatical
> > > > > >
> > > > > > forms/constructions for this specific purpose. The best example I
> > > > > >
> > > > > > could
> > > > > >
> > > > > > come up with so far is the use of the Portuguese third person
> > > > > >
> > > > > > reflexive
> > > > > >
> > > > > > possessive adjective (determiner in Brazilian Portuguese) /seu/sua/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > with
> > > > > >
> > > > > > epithets which are meant as insults. An example would be
> > > > > >
> > > > > > /Cala=te, seu burro!/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > shut.up.IMP.2.SG <http://shut.up.IMP.2.SG
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshut.up.imp.2.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=Wsd38z3IS7%2FaqTyJkGPUkncKamWvN1IwGXTun%2F7NpTI%3D&reserved=0>=2.SG.OBJ
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3.SG.REFL.POSS
> > > > > >
> > > > > > donkey.M.SG <http://donkey.M.SG
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdonkey.m.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=DAnllkzoCwHEhKOA07WYqh25abAsY2i7%2Fp4%2Bmj134VM%3D&reserved=0
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'Shut up, you idiot!'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (Where, funnily enough, the third person of the adjective/determiner
> > > > > >
> > > > > > is
> > > > > >
> > > > > > presumably the polite form!) This is an interesting case, I think,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > because as far as I can see you never use /seu/sua /in 'plain'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > vocatives, nor with terms of endearment, nor, for that matter, with
> > > > > >
> > > > > > NPs
> > > > > >
> > > > > > which are not used as invocations.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am wondering whether anyone is aware of a language which has some
> > > > > >
> > > > > > grammaticalized form or construction that can be used in this
> > > > > >
> > > > > > specific
> > > > > >
> > > > > > way. Note that I am not interested in, say, abusive pronouns or
> > > > > >
> > > > > > honorifics or general expressions of the speaker's disappointment
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ('frustrative' markers) but only in grammaticalized means of marking
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >
> > > > > > speech act as an insult.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Many thanks in advance and best wishes to all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Riccardo
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Riccardo Giomi, Ph.D.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > University of Liège
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Département de langues modernes : linguistique, littérature et
> > > > > >
> > > > > > traduction
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Research group /Linguistique contrastive et typologie des langues/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > F.R.S.-FNRS Postdoctoral fellow (CR - FC 43095)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > //
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lingtyp mailing list
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=tXVv1UmQRpc6FL%2FBIEeQEkvgOZvHNaC%2BkzSfZI9wJ%2BY%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >
> > > > > Lingtyp mailing list
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> > > > >
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> > > > >
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> > > >
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> > > >
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>
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>
> Message: 3
>
> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 12:49:30 +0100
>
> From: Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it
>
> To: rgiomi at campus.ul.pt
>
> Cc: Nigel Vincent nigel.vincent at manchester.ac.uk,
>
>     "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>     <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Message-ID:
>
> CAEaecYG7erNfcbQxm5wvVYSoKOQtvUs1hwBAY5mUEE+KmMa+pA at mail.gmail.com
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Chère Stéphane,
>
> info bibliographique: Alinei, Mario [1971b], Il tipo sintagmatico 'Quel
>
> matto di Giorgio', in Medici, Mario - Simone, Raffaele [a cura di], SLI:
>
> Grammatica trasformazionale italiana. Atti del III convegno internazionale
>
> di studi. Roma 29-30 novembre 1969, Bulzoni, Roma 1971, pp. 1-12.
>
> https://www.academia.edu ›
>
> https://www.academia.edu/16996668/Il_tipo_sintagmatico_Quel_matto_di_Giorgio_
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=alinei+quel+matto+di+giorgio&rlz=1C1CHBF_itIT830IT830&oq=alinei%2C+quel+matto+di+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j33i160.10056j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#
>
> 1.
>
> https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2kaRlQX5_14J:https://www.academia.edu/16996668/Il_tipo_sintagmatico_Quel_matto_di_Giorgio_+&cd=1&hl=it&ct=clnk&gl=it
>
> Il tipo sintagmatico " Quel matto di Giorgio". Mario Alinei. Download PDF.
>
> Download Full PDF Package. This paper. A short summary of this paper.
>
> Amitiés
>
> Paolo
>
> Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat
>
> Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente
>
> 'Academia Europaea'
>
> 'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member
>
> Università di Pavia (retired)
>
> Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)
>
> piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
>
> ##39 0382 27027
>
> 347 044 98 44
>
> Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 12:22 Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it ha
>
> scritto:
>
> > Dear Riccardo, Randy and Maia,
> >
> > I agree with Riccardo's argument: it is theoretically possible to imagine
> >
> > a language that has grammaticalized only negative, derogatory and insulting
> >
> > constructs: are there examples of this language type? Which could be the
> >
> > morphological/syntactic means for such a grammaticalization ? And Riccardo
> >
> > is right in considering pezzo as the head of the construct (though, in
> >
> > my Italian idiolect, I don't find unacceptable *brutta pezzo di cretina, i.e.,
> >
> > roughly, [ [brutta]ADJ.F [pezzo di cretina] ]NP.F ). To Randy's
> >
> > wondering: not being an Engl. native speaker I can't say whether 'piece
> >
> > of shit' is a borrowing from Ital. pezzo di merda (decidedly not a
> >
> > funny phrase !). *We need looking into historical dictionaries/corpora
> >
> > of both languages
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Paolo
> >
> > piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
> >
> > ##39 0382 27027
> >
> > 347 044 98 44
> >
> > Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 11:39 Riccardo Giomi <
> >
> > rgiomi at campus.ul.pt> ha scritto:
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for a nice set of data and references. This will be
> > >
> > > extremely useful.
> > >
> > > I will reply to some of you privately, asking for further
> > >
> > > comments/data/references. In the mean time, any further feedback is of
> > >
> > > course more than welcome!
> > >
> > > @Maia & Paolo: I agree with Paolo that pezzo di / espèce de are not
> > >
> > > grammaticalized, although not for the reason he mentions. After all the
> > >
> > > working hypothesis is precisely that languages can have grammaticalized
> > >
> > > means of marking a speech act as an insult, so, according to this
> > >
> > > hypothesis, the fact that pezzo di X never occurs with positively
> > >
> > > connotated epithets does not entail that the construction is not
> > >
> > > grammaticalized.
> > >
> > > A different type of argument for regarding these as lexical constructions
> > >
> > > is the fact that premodifying adjectives must agree with *pezzo *and not
> > >
> > > with the epithet (and I guess the same goes for French espèce), cf. brutto
> > >
> > > pezzo di cretina, as opposed to *brutta pezzo di cretina. This
> > >
> > > suggests that *pezzo *is the head of the construction; if it had been a
> > >
> > > grammaticalized element, I suppose agreement would have been with the
> > >
> > > epithet. At any rate, these nouns are not really reserved for marking a
> > >
> > > speech act as an insult -- they can also occur in other types of speech
> > >
> > > act, e.g. declarative *Quel pezzo di X mi ha rubato la bici *(roughly,
> > >
> > > 'That dirty X stole my bike').
> > >
> > > Best wishes to all,
> > >
> > > Riccardo
> > >
> > > Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it escreveu no dia quarta, 15/12/2021 à(s)
> > >
> > > 11:03:
> > >
> > > > In Italian too *pezzo di X *'espèce de X' , as in *pezzo di idiota and
> > > >
> > > > the very insulting, derogating (but very much used) pezzo di merda, *appears
> > > >
> > > > just in derogating expressions: you will never hear * *pezzo di genio,
> > > >
> > > > nor *pezzo di benefattore ! *This is, I think, an argument for not
> > > >
> > > > considering the construct *'pezzo di X ' *as belonging to the grammar
> > > >
> > > > (Maia).
> > > >
> > > > Paolo
> > > >
> > > > Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat
> > > >
> > > > Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente
> > > >
> > > > 'Academia Europaea'
> > > >
> > > > 'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member
> > > >
> > > > Università di Pavia (retired)
> > > >
> > > > Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)
> > > >
> > > > piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
> > > >
> > > > ##39 0382 27027
> > > >
> > > > 347 044 98 44
> > > >
> > > > Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 07:48 Nigel Vincent <
> > > >
> > > > nigel.vincent at manchester.ac.uk> ha scritto:
> > > >
> > > > > Maia is of course right that the English 'you X' is a way of insulting
> > > > >
> > > > > people but that depends on X being an insult. The same construction can be
> > > > >
> > > > > used to praise: 'you genius', 'you darling', etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nigel
> > > > >
> > > > > Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE
> > > > >
> > > > > Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics
> > > > >
> > > > > The University of Manchester
> > > > >
> > > > > Linguistics & English Language
> > > > >
> > > > > School of Arts, Languages and Cultures
> > > > >
> > > > > The University of Manchester
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf
> > > > >
> > > > > of Maia Ponsonnet maia.ponsonnet at uwa.edu.au
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent: 15 December 2021 1:54 AM
> > > > >
> > > > > To: Jussi Ylikoski jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi;
> > > > >
> > > > > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > Doesn't the English "you idiot" (you [insult]) qualify as an example?
> > > > >
> > > > > Copula-free adposition is not standard in English predication, and it
> > > > >
> > > > > seems largely limited to second person sing and derogatory adjectives?
> > > > >
> > > > > French has "espèce d'idiot" - not sure whether it qualifies as
> > > > >
> > > > > grammatical or lexical.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers, Maïa
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr Maïa Ponsonnet
> > > > >
> > > > > Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics
> > > > >
> > > > > Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences
> > > > >
> > > > > Building M257, Room 2.36
> > > > >
> > > > > The University of Western Australia
> > > > >
> > > > > 35 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA (6009), Australia
> > > > >
> > > > > P. +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - M. +61 (0) 468 571 030
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf
> > > > >
> > > > > of Jussi Ylikoski jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 15 December 2021 6:09 AM
> > > > >
> > > > > To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> > > > >
> > > > > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Riccardo and all,
> > > > >
> > > > > D’Avis and Meibauer's paper "Du Idiot! Din idiot! Pseudo-vocative
> > > > >
> > > > > constructions and insults in German (and Swedish)" (
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110304176.189/html
> > > > >
> > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.degruyter.com%2Fdocument%2Fdoi%2F10.1515%2F9783110304176.189%2Fhtml&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=Qm0dhs6L0wUoC0ozwJeshZnGlztNFYs2tB0%2FwjH91yo%3D&reserved=0)
> > > > >
> > > > > might be of interest; see also the thirty studies referring to this paper
> > > > >
> > > > > according to Google Scholar:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=9645899484374998601
> > > > >
> > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fcites%3D9645899484374998601&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=SiEIXLU6h58y3oPt6JDnSMiqxAD9CDEmDdvrhfbB%2F64%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >
> > > > > (and so forth).
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Jussi
> > > > >
> > > > > Frá: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org fyrir hönd
> > > > >
> > > > > Sebastian Nordhoff sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent: þriðjudagur, 14. desember 2021 22:50
> > > > >
> > > > > Til: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> > > > >
> > > > > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > Efni: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Riccardo,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sinhala has several levels of politeness in imperatives (marked by
> > > > >
> > > > > affixes), one of which would be rendered as "Do X, you $#!% !!!". I
> > > > >
> > > > > once
> > > > >
> > > > > nearly got beaten up when underestimating the impact that the use of
> > > > >
> > > > > this form can have. I can look up the reference if you want to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes
> > > > >
> > > > > Sebastian
> > > > >
> > > > > On 12/14/21 19:49, Riccardo Giomi wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A student of mine would like to investigate the linguistic coding of
> > > > > >
> > > > > > insults across languages. She is particularly interested in finding
> > > > > >
> > > > > > out
> > > > > >
> > > > > > whether languages can have dedicated (uses of) grammatical
> > > > > >
> > > > > > forms/constructions for this specific purpose. The best example I
> > > > > >
> > > > > > could
> > > > > >
> > > > > > come up with so far is the use of the Portuguese third person
> > > > > >
> > > > > > reflexive
> > > > > >
> > > > > > possessive adjective (determiner in Brazilian Portuguese) /seu/sua/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > with
> > > > > >
> > > > > > epithets which are meant as insults. An example would be
> > > > > >
> > > > > > /Cala=te, seu burro!/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > shut.up.IMP.2.SG <http://shut.up.IMP.2.SG
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshut.up.imp.2.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=Wsd38z3IS7%2FaqTyJkGPUkncKamWvN1IwGXTun%2F7NpTI%3D&reserved=0>=2.SG.OBJ
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3.SG.REFL.POSS
> > > > > >
> > > > > > donkey.M.SG <http://donkey.M.SG
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdonkey.m.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=DAnllkzoCwHEhKOA07WYqh25abAsY2i7%2Fp4%2Bmj134VM%3D&reserved=0
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'Shut up, you idiot!'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (Where, funnily enough, the third person of the adjective/determiner
> > > > > >
> > > > > > is
> > > > > >
> > > > > > presumably the polite form!) This is an interesting case, I think,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > because as far as I can see you never use /seu/sua /in 'plain'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > vocatives, nor with terms of endearment, nor, for that matter, with
> > > > > >
> > > > > > NPs
> > > > > >
> > > > > > which are not used as invocations.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am wondering whether anyone is aware of a language which has some
> > > > > >
> > > > > > grammaticalized form or construction that can be used in this
> > > > > >
> > > > > > specific
> > > > > >
> > > > > > way. Note that I am not interested in, say, abusive pronouns or
> > > > > >
> > > > > > honorifics or general expressions of the speaker's disappointment
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ('frustrative' markers) but only in grammaticalized means of marking
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >
> > > > > > speech act as an insult.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Many thanks in advance and best wishes to all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Riccardo
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Riccardo Giomi, Ph.D.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > University of Liège
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Département de langues modernes : linguistique, littérature et
> > > > > >
> > > > > > traduction
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Research group /Linguistique contrastive et typologie des langues/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > F.R.S.-FNRS Postdoctoral fellow (CR - FC 43095)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > //
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lingtyp mailing list
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=tXVv1UmQRpc6FL%2FBIEeQEkvgOZvHNaC%2BkzSfZI9wJ%2BY%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >
> > > > > Lingtyp mailing list
> > > > >
> > > > > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > > >
> > > > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> > > > >
> > > > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|cc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751168309659999|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=tXVv1UmQRpc6FL%2FBIEeQEkvgOZvHNaC%2BkzSfZI9wJ%2BY%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >
> > > > > Lingtyp mailing list
> > > > >
> > > > > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > > >
> > > > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> > > >
> > > > Lingtyp mailing list
> > > >
> > > > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > >
> > > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
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>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>
> URL: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20211215/b9c4b879/attachment-0001.html
>
> Message: 4
>
> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 12:11:40 +0000
>
> From: Maia Ponsonnet maia.ponsonnet at uwa.edu.au
>
> To: Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it, "rgiomi at campus.ul.pt"
>
>     <rgiomi at campus.ul.pt>
>
>
> Cc: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>
> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Message-ID:
>
> MEAPR01MB304634FCB9F10A04C5ED42ECAF769 at MEAPR01MB3046.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Hello,
>
> I agree with all this.
>
> An interesting observation is that in French, 'espèce de' is versatile in gender agreement.
>
> I would accept "une espèce de crétin" (as more formal) but would say "un espèce de crétin", treating "crétin" as the head.
>
> This said, I also agree that it is not specialized for insults.
>
> It is simply an evaluative (pejorative) construction.
>
> You can use it with inanimates as well:
>
> "ils nous ont servi un espèce de ragout, c'était dégueulasse."
>
> "they served us some sort of stew, it was disgusting."
>
> Thank you very much for this very interesting discussion, and I would be keen to get a summary if someone creates one.
>
> Kind regards, Maïa
>
> Dr Maïa Ponsonnet
>
> Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics
>
> Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences
>
> Building M257, Room 2.36
>
> The University of Western Australia
>
> 35 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA (6009), Australia
>
> P. +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - M. +61 (0) 468 571 030
>
> From: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf of Riccardo Giomi rgiomi at campus.ul.pt
>
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 December 2021 6:39 PM
>
> To: Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it
>
> Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Dear all,
>
> Thank you very much for a nice set of data and references. This will be extremely useful.
>
> I will reply to some of you privately, asking for further comments/data/references. In the mean time, any further feedback is of course more than welcome!
>
> @Maia & Paolo: I agree with Paolo that pezzo di / espèce de are not grammaticalized, although not for the reason he mentions. After all the working hypothesis is precisely that languages can have grammaticalized means of marking a speech act as an insult, so, according to this hypothesis, the fact that pezzo di X never occurs with positively connotated epithets does not entail that the construction is not grammaticalized.
>
> A different type of argument for regarding these as lexical constructions is the fact that premodifying adjectives must agree with pezzo and not with the epithet (and I guess the same goes for French espèce), cf. brutto pezzo di cretina, as opposed to *brutta pezzo di cretina. This suggests that pezzo is the head of the construction; if it had been a grammaticalized element, I suppose agreement would have been with the epithet. At any rate, these nouns are not really reserved for marking a speech act as an insult -- they can also occur in other types of speech act, e.g. declarative Quel pezzo di X mi ha rubato la bici (roughly, 'That dirty X stole my bike').
>
> Best wishes to all,
>
> Riccardo
>
> Paolo Ramat <paoram at unipv.itmailto:paoram at unipv.it> escreveu no dia quarta, 15/12/2021 à(s) 11:03:
>
> In Italian too pezzo di X 'espèce de X' , as in pezzo di idiota and the very insulting, derogating (but very much used) pezzo di merda, appears just in derogating expressions: you will never hear *pezzo di genio, nor *pezzo di benefattore ! This is, I think, an argument for not considering the construct 'pezzo di X ' as belonging to the grammar (Maia).
>
> Paolo
>
> Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat
>
> Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente
>
> 'Academia Europaea'
>
> 'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member
>
> Università di Pavia (retired)
>
> Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)
>
> piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
>
> ##39 0382 27027
>
> 347 044 98 44
>
> Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 07:48 Nigel Vincent <nigel.vincent at manchester.ac.ukmailto:nigel.vincent at manchester.ac.uk> ha scritto:
>
> Maia is of course right that the English 'you X' is a way of insulting people but that depends on X being an insult. The same construction can be used to praise: 'you genius', 'you darling', etc.
>
> Nigel
>
> Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE
>
> Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics
>
> The University of Manchester
>
> Linguistics & English Language
>
> School of Arts, Languages and Cultures
>
> The University of Manchester
>
> https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).htmlhttps://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.research.manchester.ac.uk%2Fportal%2Fen%2Fresearchers%2Fnigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751334098|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=4hvvoCVhQ1VsMwrXSgNcZPOk3EFC9zl7yjeWfS7AEs8%3D&reserved=0
>
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Maia Ponsonnet <maia.ponsonnet at uwa.edu.aumailto:maia.ponsonnet at uwa.edu.au>
>
> Sent: 15 December 2021 1:54 AM
>
> To: Jussi Ylikoski <jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fimailto:jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi>; lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Hello,
>
> Doesn't the English "you idiot" (you [insult]) qualify as an example?
>
> Copula-free adposition is not standard in English predication, and it seems largely limited to second person sing and derogatory adjectives?
>
> French has "espèce d'idiot" - not sure whether it qualifies as grammatical or lexical.
>
> Cheers, Maïa
>
> Dr Maïa Ponsonnet
>
> Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics
>
> Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences
>
> Building M257, Room 2.36
>
> The University of Western Australia
>
> 35 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA (6009), Australia
>
> P. +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - M. +61 (0) 468 571 030
>
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Jussi Ylikoski <jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fimailto:jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 December 2021 6:09 AM
>
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Dear Riccardo and all,
>
> D’Avis and Meibauer's paper "Du Idiot! Din idiot! Pseudo-vocative constructions and insults in German (and Swedish)" (https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110304176.189/htmlhttps://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.degruyter.com%2Fdocument%2Fdoi%2F10.1515%2F9783110304176.189%2Fhtml&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751334098|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=YtvWy84MP7idITTVxJWQv5Ov5wyyIdzuJmfhb4EM0nk%3D&reserved=0) might be of interest; see also the thirty studies referring to this paper according to Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=9645899484374998601https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fcites%3D9645899484374998601&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751334098|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=tbPuv8Q1wCWZfnqLUSXCpVDRqg1j93uAi6VhEV%2Bjc70%3D&reserved=0 (and so forth).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jussi
>
> Frá: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> fyrir hönd Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.demailto:sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>
>
> Sent: þriðjudagur, 14. desember 2021 22:50
>
> Til: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
> Efni: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Dear Riccardo,
>
> Sinhala has several levels of politeness in imperatives (marked by
>
> affixes), one of which would be rendered as "Do X, you $#!% !!!". I once
>
> nearly got beaten up when underestimating the impact that the use of
>
> this form can have. I can look up the reference if you want to.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Sebastian
>
> On 12/14/21 19:49, Riccardo Giomi wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > A student of mine would like to investigate the linguistic coding of
> >
> > insults across languages. She is particularly interested in finding out
> >
> > whether languages can have dedicated (uses of) grammatical
> >
> > forms/constructions for this specific purpose. The best example I could
> >
> > come up with so far is the use of the Portuguese third person reflexive
> >
> > possessive adjective (determiner in Brazilian Portuguese) /seu/sua/ with
> >
> > epithets which are meant as insults. An example would be
> >
> > /Cala=te, seu burro!/
> >
> > shut.up.IMP.2.SGhttps://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshut.up.imp.2.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751334098|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=vcUcQyL%2BGHVqyOkN6wRwrCK87T31uIPlv83%2BU4w4yXI%3D&reserved=0 <http://shut.up.IMP.2.SGhttps://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshut.up.imp.2.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751334098|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=vcUcQyL%2BGHVqyOkN6wRwrCK87T31uIPlv83%2BU4w4yXI%3D&reserved=0>=2.SG.OBJ 3.SG.REFL.POSS
> >
> > donkey.M.SGhttps://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdonkey.m.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751334098|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=Dp%2FbjnQzYoohURoGN7oHqG7LSlKWzAepAnTOmLHL71Y%3D&reserved=0 <http://donkey.M.SGhttps://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdonkey.m.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751490341|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=fgeWxj6HHR4DWebelsw7qvlvRsdbEnvdW7kD0dqo3pg%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > 'Shut up, you idiot!'
> >
> > (Where, funnily enough, the third person of the adjective/determiner is
> >
> > presumably the polite form!) This is an interesting case, I think,
> >
> > because as far as I can see you never use /seu/sua /in 'plain'
> >
> > vocatives, nor with terms of endearment, nor, for that matter, with NPs
> >
> > which are not used as invocations.
> >
> > I am wondering whether anyone is aware of a language which has some
> >
> > grammaticalized form or construction that can be used in this specific
> >
> > way. Note that I am not interested in, say, abusive pronouns or
> >
> > honorifics or general expressions of the speaker's disappointment
> >
> > ('frustrative' markers) but only in grammaticalized means of marking the
> >
> > speech act as an insult.
> >
> > Many thanks in advance and best wishes to all,
> >
> > Riccardo
> >
> > --
> >
> > Riccardo Giomi, Ph.D.
> >
> > University of Liège
> >
> > Département de langues modernes : linguistique, littérature et traduction
> >
> > Research group /Linguistique contrastive et typologie des langues/
> >
> > F.R.S.-FNRS Postdoctoral fellow (CR - FC 43095)
> >
> > //
> >
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> >
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >
> > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyphttps://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751490341|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=qtNTFi1RBTRJCsRhfU%2FTSIvp61KcsaL2CHmE3MIi8Zo%3D&reserved=0
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> -------------- next part --------------
>
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>
> URL: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20211215/c96d70df/attachment-0001.html
>
> Message: 5
>
> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 16:56:29 +0100
>
> From: Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it
>
> To: Maia Ponsonnet maia.ponsonnet at uwa.edu.au
>
> Cc: "rgiomi at campus.ul.pt" rgiomi at campus.ul.pt,
>
>     "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>     <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Message-ID:
>
> CAEaecYExqLhNjUr_ii0X32kjneOkmtUBxaS_d1WQ=REe8GesUw at mail.gmail.com
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Addendum
>
> Contrary to what I wrote this morning (h. 11 CET), it is not completely
>
> true that *(un) * *pezzo di X *'espèce de X' , as in *pezzo di
>
> idiota *appears
>
> just in derogating expressions: As my wife has noticed, you have un pezzo
>
> d'uomo "a tall/big man", un pezzo di ragazzo "a tall and handsome boy"
>
> and even un pezzo di ragazza "a tall and beautiful girl" (with no
>
> insulting intention). The possibility of the positive value of such
>
> idiomatic expressions lies, I think, in the presence of the indefin.
>
> article *un: e.g. ho incontrato un pezzo d'uomo che... *"I met a tall man
>
> who...." On the other hand, pezzo di idiota and the like are usually
>
> used in direct speech as an insult against your interlocutor, i.e. "you,
>
> pezzo di idiota !!"
>
> Best,
>
> Paolo
>
> Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 13:11 Maia Ponsonnet <
>
> maia.ponsonnet at uwa.edu.au> ha scritto:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I agree with all this.
> >
> > An interesting observation is that in French, 'espèce de' is versatile in
> >
> > gender agreement.
> >
> > I would accept "une espèce de crétin" (as more formal) but would say "un
> >
> > espèce de crétin", treating "crétin" as the head.
> >
> > This said, I also agree that it is not specialized for insults.
> >
> > It is simply an evaluative (pejorative) construction.
> >
> > You can use it with inanimates as well:
> >
> > "ils nous ont servi un espèce de ragout, c'était dégueulasse."
> >
> > "they served us some sort of stew, it was disgusting."
> >
> > Thank you very much for this very interesting discussion, and I would be
> >
> > keen to get a summary if someone creates one.
> >
> > Kind regards, Maïa
> >
> > Dr Maïa Ponsonnet
> >
> > Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics
> >
> > Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences
> >
> > Building M257, Room 2.36
> >
> > The University of Western Australia
> >
> > 35 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA (6009), Australia
> >
> > P. +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - M. +61 (0) 468 571 030
> >
> > From: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf of
> >
> > Riccardo Giomi rgiomi at campus.ul.pt
> >
> > Sent: Wednesday, 15 December 2021 6:39 PM
> >
> > To: Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it
> >
> > Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Thank you very much for a nice set of data and references. This will be
> >
> > extremely useful.
> >
> > I will reply to some of you privately, asking for further
> >
> > comments/data/references. In the mean time, any further feedback is of
> >
> > course more than welcome!
> >
> > @Maia & Paolo: I agree with Paolo that pezzo di / espèce de are not
> >
> > grammaticalized, although not for the reason he mentions. After all the
> >
> > working hypothesis is precisely that languages can have grammaticalized
> >
> > means of marking a speech act as an insult, so, according to this
> >
> > hypothesis, the fact that pezzo di X never occurs with positively
> >
> > connotated epithets does not entail that the construction is not
> >
> > grammaticalized.
> >
> > A different type of argument for regarding these as lexical constructions
> >
> > is the fact that premodifying adjectives must agree with *pezzo *and not
> >
> > with the epithet (and I guess the same goes for French espèce), cf. brutto
> >
> > pezzo di cretina, as opposed to *brutta pezzo di cretina. This
> >
> > suggests that *pezzo *is the head of the construction; if it had been a
> >
> > grammaticalized element, I suppose agreement would have been with the
> >
> > epithet. At any rate, these nouns are not really reserved for marking a
> >
> > speech act as an insult -- they can also occur in other types of speech
> >
> > act, e.g. declarative *Quel pezzo di X mi ha rubato la bici * (roughly,
> >
> > 'That dirty X stole my bike').
> >
> > Best wishes to all,
> >
> > Riccardo
> >
> > Paolo Ramat paoram at unipv.it escreveu no dia quarta, 15/12/2021 à(s)
> >
> > 11:03:
> >
> > In Italian too *pezzo di X *'espèce de X' , as in *pezzo di idiota and
> >
> > the very insulting, derogating (but very much used) pezzo di merda, *appears
> >
> > just in derogating expressions: you will never hear * pezzo di genio, *
> >
> > nor *pezzo di benefattore ! *This is, I think, an argument for not
> >
> > considering the construct *'pezzo di X ' *as belonging to the grammar
> >
> > (Maia).
> >
> > Paolo
> >
> > Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat
> >
> > Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente
> >
> > 'Academia Europaea'
> >
> > 'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member
> >
> > Università di Pavia (retired)
> >
> > Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)
> >
> > piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
> >
> > ##39 0382 27027
> >
> > 347 044 98 44
> >
> > Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 07:48 Nigel Vincent <
> >
> > nigel.vincent at manchester.ac.uk> ha scritto:
> >
> > Maia is of course right that the English 'you X' is a way of insulting
> >
> > people but that depends on X being an insult. The same construction can be
> >
> > used to praise: 'you genius', 'you darling', etc.
> >
> > Nigel
> >
> > Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE
> >
> > Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics
> >
> > The University of Manchester
> >
> > Linguistics & English Language
> >
> > School of Arts, Languages and Cultures
> >
> > The University of Manchester
> >
> > https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html
> >
> > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.research.manchester.ac.uk%2Fportal%2Fen%2Fresearchers%2Fnigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751334098|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=4hvvoCVhQ1VsMwrXSgNcZPOk3EFC9zl7yjeWfS7AEs8%3D&reserved=0
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > From: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf of
> >
> > Maia Ponsonnet maia.ponsonnet at uwa.edu.au
> >
> > Sent: 15 December 2021 1:54 AM
> >
> > To: Jussi Ylikoski jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi;
> >
> > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Doesn't the English "you idiot" (you [insult]) qualify as an example?
> >
> > Copula-free adposition is not standard in English predication, and it
> >
> > seems largely limited to second person sing and derogatory adjectives?
> >
> > French has "espèce d'idiot" - not sure whether it qualifies as grammatical
> >
> > or lexical.
> >
> > Cheers, Maïa
> >
> > Dr Maïa Ponsonnet
> >
> > Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics
> >
> > Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences
> >
> > Building M257, Room 2.36
> >
> > The University of Western Australia
> >
> > 35 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA (6009), Australia
> >
> > P. +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - M. +61 (0) 468 571 030
> >
> > From: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf of
> >
> > Jussi Ylikoski jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi
> >
> > Sent: Wednesday, 15 December 2021 6:09 AM
> >
> > To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> >
> > Dear Riccardo and all,
> >
> > D’Avis and Meibauer's paper "Du Idiot! Din idiot! Pseudo-vocative
> >
> > constructions and insults in German (and Swedish)" (
> >
> > https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110304176.189/html
> >
> > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.degruyter.com%2Fdocument%2Fdoi%2F10.1515%2F9783110304176.189%2Fhtml&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751334098|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=YtvWy84MP7idITTVxJWQv5Ov5wyyIdzuJmfhb4EM0nk%3D&reserved=0)
> >
> > might be of interest; see also the thirty studies referring to this paper
> >
> > according to Google Scholar:
> >
> > https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=9645899484374998601
> >
> > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fcites%3D9645899484374998601&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751334098|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=tbPuv8Q1wCWZfnqLUSXCpVDRqg1j93uAi6VhEV%2Bjc70%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > (and so forth).
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Jussi
> >
> > Frá: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org fyrir hönd
> >
> > Sebastian Nordhoff sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de
> >
> > Sent: þriðjudagur, 14. desember 2021 22:50
> >
> > Til: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> >
> > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> >
> > Efni: Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
> >
> > Dear Riccardo,
> >
> > Sinhala has several levels of politeness in imperatives (marked by
> >
> > affixes), one of which would be rendered as "Do X, you $#!% !!!". I once
> >
> > nearly got beaten up when underestimating the impact that the use of
> >
> > this form can have. I can look up the reference if you want to.
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Sebastian
> >
> > On 12/14/21 19:49, Riccardo Giomi wrote:
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > A student of mine would like to investigate the linguistic coding of
> > >
> > > insults across languages. She is particularly interested in finding out
> > >
> > > whether languages can have dedicated (uses of) grammatical
> > >
> > > forms/constructions for this specific purpose. The best example I could
> > >
> > > come up with so far is the use of the Portuguese third person reflexive
> > >
> > > possessive adjective (determiner in Brazilian Portuguese) /seu/sua/ with
> > >
> > > epithets which are meant as insults. An example would be
> > >
> > > /Cala=te, seu burro!/
> > >
> > > shut.up.IMP.2.SG
> > >
> > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshut.up.imp.2.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751334098|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=vcUcQyL%2BGHVqyOkN6wRwrCK87T31uIPlv83%2BU4w4yXI%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > <http://shut.up.IMP.2.SG
> > >
> > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshut.up.imp.2.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751334098|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=vcUcQyL%2BGHVqyOkN6wRwrCK87T31uIPlv83%2BU4w4yXI%3D&reserved=0>=2.SG.OBJ
> > >
> > > 3.SG.REFL.POSS
> > >
> > > donkey.M.SG
> > >
> > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdonkey.m.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751334098|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=Dp%2FbjnQzYoohURoGN7oHqG7LSlKWzAepAnTOmLHL71Y%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > <http://donkey.M.SG
> > >
> > > https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdonkey.m.sg%2F&data=04|01|maia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au|18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad|05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226|0|0|637751618751490341|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D|3000&sdata=fgeWxj6HHR4DWebelsw7qvlvRsdbEnvdW7kD0dqo3pg%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > 'Shut up, you idiot!'
> > >
> > > (Where, funnily enough, the third person of the adjective/determiner is
> > >
> > > presumably the polite form!) This is an interesting case, I think,
> > >
> > > because as far as I can see you never use /seu/sua /in 'plain'
> > >
> > > vocatives, nor with terms of endearment, nor, for that matter, with NPs
> > >
> > > which are not used as invocations.
> > >
> > > I am wondering whether anyone is aware of a language which has some
> > >
> > > grammaticalized form or construction that can be used in this specific
> > >
> > > way. Note that I am not interested in, say, abusive pronouns or
> > >
> > > honorifics or general expressions of the speaker's disappointment
> > >
> > > ('frustrative' markers) but only in grammaticalized means of marking the
> > >
> > > speech act as an insult.
> > >
> > > Many thanks in advance and best wishes to all,
> > >
> > > Riccardo
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Riccardo Giomi, Ph.D.
> > >
> > > University of Liège
> > >
> > > Département de langues modernes : linguistique, littérature et traduction
> > >
> > > Research group /Linguistique contrastive et typologie des langues/
> > >
> > > F.R.S.-FNRS Postdoctoral fellow (CR - FC 43095)
> > >
> > > //
> > >
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> End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 87, Issue 27