[Lingtyp] New name for "Mainland Northeast Asia"
Martin Haspelmath
martin_haspelmath at eva.mpg.de
Mon Jan 4 15:43:46 UTC 2021
It seems that the problem of identifying areal phenomena in an objective
way is a really hard one. It is indeed very easy to be misled by
appearances.
I remember a talk by Östen Dahl around 2003 when he presented a
WALS-like map with two feature values and asked the audience to look for
areal patterns – of which there was no shortage (low-level ones). Then
came the surprise: The map that he presented was generated by a random
process.
Back in 1998/2001, I identified a number of "Standard Average European
<https://zenodo.org/record/1236769>" areal features, but I didn't try to
make sure that these were not random coincidences. Out of thousands of
possible areal features, 12-15 that cluster in Europe is perhaps not all
that much. It seems that we would need to start in a radically bottom-up
manner, using a representative set of features, and examine them all for
a large number of languages. (Ian Joo seems to be planning something of
this sort.)
But what is a "representative set of grammatical features"? Nobody seems
to have an idea of how to achieve objective representativeness.
The only quantitative approach to the problem that I have come across is
this paper:
Daumé III, Hal. 2009. Non-Parametric Bayesian Areal Linguistics.
/arXiv:0906.5114 [cs]/. (http://arxiv.org/abs/0906.5114
<http://arxiv.org/abs/0906.5114>)
Best wishes, and Happy New Year,
Martin
Am 04.01.21 um 16:07 schrieb JOO, Ian [Student]:
> Dear all,
>
> first, I apologize if I’m spamming everyone with my personal research.
> But this is just a response to some of those who have provided me
> helpful feedback.
> As some have rightfully pointed out the problems of my top-down
> approach, I decided to take their advice and radically change the
> direction of my research into a bottom-up approach. In other words,
> other than hypothesizing that there is a linguistic area called
> Mainland/Inner/Central/whatever Northeast Asia and then looking for
> features that would justify that area, I decided to agnostically
> collect linguistic features from the sample languages of a macroarea
> and then use that data to see if there are any subareas within that
> macroarea. And that macroarea will be East Asia (not including North
> Asia or Southeast Aisa). I have selected 34 convenience sample
> languages spoken in East Asia (see below). (Note that some language
> names are simplified for visual convenience, for example just “Hmong”
> for Dananshan Hmong.)
>
>
>
> So the idea is to first gather, say, 50-100 linguistic features, test
> whether each language has that feature, and then use that data to see
> if certain feature is dominant in certain geographical zones within
> East Asia (for example Northwest China). Only after that would it be
> safe to claim a linguistic area.
> I would like to express my gratitude to all the helpful feedback that
> drastically changed the direction of my future research. Also I would
> appreciate it if you could have a look at the sample languages above
> to see if I should add any sample languages to balance the geography
> or geneology of the sample.
>
> Regards,
> Ian
> On 4 Jan 2021, 7:47 PM +0800, JOO, Ian [Student]
> <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>, wrote:
>> Dear Andi,
>>
>> Vladimir Panov in his recent paper "Final particles in Asia:
>> Establishing an areal feature
>> <https://doi.org/10.1515/lingty-2019-2032>” discusses the definition
>> of an areal feature.
>> His idea is that even if a given feature found not only in a given
>> area but in other parts of the world as well, that doesn’t
>> necessarily rule out that that feature is not areal. If that feature
>> is not found in areas surrounding that area, then that qualifies as
>> an areal feature too.
>> I would like to take an example from Mainland Southeast Asia: Tones.
>> Of course, tones are not unique to Mainland Southeast Asia. It’s even
>> prevalent in its neighboring regions like Northeast Asia. But no one
>> would deny that tones are a linguistic feature of MSEA precisely
>> because it’s uncommon in areas surrounding it (insular Southeast Asia
>> and South Asia). Thus we cannot say that “because tones are common in
>> other parts of the world, it can’t be an areal feature of MSEA.”
>> Sure, it can’t be a *unique* feature of MSEA, but it’s its areal
>> feature nevertheless. This is how I view areality.
>> You’re right about the methodological issue that the bottom-up
>> approach would be good as well. But for the moment I would like to
>> try a top-down methodology. And thanks for the reading suggestions!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ian
>> On 4 Jan 2021, 7:33 PM +0800, hoelzlandreas at web.de
>> <hoelzlandreas at web.de>, wrote:
>>> Dear Ian,
>>> A more salient feature of the area, such as a geographical name,
>>> would perhaps be more convincing than the name of a plant.
>>> Concerning the features you listed:
>>> > The colexification between NORTH and REAR (as previously discussed);
>>> This is indeed interesting. The same can be found in Oroqen
>>> (Tungusic), etc. I am not sure how old this feature is, but it
>>> cannot be found in varieties of Jurchen, the predecessor or close
>>> relative of Manchu which you had on your map.
>>> The other features you listed do not seem to define any area in
>>> Northeast Asia but can be found throughout Eurasia or the world. I
>>> would advice having another look at the typological literature
>>> (e.g., on differential object marking), literature on
>>> "Altaic/Transeurasian" (Martine Robbeets has a paper on
>>> passive/causative isomorphism), and the features in WALS
>>> (e.g., Holger Diessel's map on demonstratives:
>>> https://wals.info/feature/42A#2/23.2/152.6).
>>> Methodologically, it might be a good idea to find a set of features
>>> first and then think about a name of the "linguistic area" you may
>>> have found.
>>> Best,
>>> Andi
>>> *Gesendet:* Montag, 04. Januar 2021 um 11:10 Uhr
>>> *Von:* "JOO, Ian [Student]" <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>
>>> *An:* "LINGTYP" <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>> *Betreff:* Re: [Lingtyp] New name for "Mainland Northeast Asia"
>>> Dear Andi, dear all,
>>>
>>> thank you Andi, for pointing that out.
>>> It seems that some are concerned with the terms “inner” and “outer”
>>> because it may have some connotation as a value judgement (more
>>> important v. less important). So this needs to be fixed.
>>> I appreciate your suggestion of the terms “central” and “peripheral”
>>> but to me, the word “peripheral” seems equally risky in terms of
>>> value judgement connotation: The Cambridge dictionary defines
>>> “peripheral” as "Something that is peripheral is not as important as
>>> something else”.
>>> I will think of several other options such as “Micro/Macro”,
>>> “Narrow/Wide”, “Small/Big”, etc. All other suggestions are welcome.
>>> (Or perhaps I will have to go with my previously suggested name
>>> “Astragalia”, if necessary.)
>>>
>>> As for Andi’s comment why we need this areal classification in the
>>> first place, well that’s what my doctoral research is trying to
>>> justify, and I already have several linguistic features that are
>>> found in this area but generally not in the surrounding areas, such as:
>>>
>>> 1. The colexification between NORTH and REAR (as previously discussed);
>>> 2. Isomorphic pronoun/determiner alternation of demonstratives
>>> (such as English “*This *is a book”/“*This *book”);
>>> 3. The presence of velar nasal only at the coda position;
>>> 4. Monomorphemic 1PL pronouns;
>>> 5. Isomorphimic passive/causative alternation (e. g. Mandarin /ràng/);
>>> 6. Differential Object Marking by marked v. unmarked accusatives;
>>> 7. The presence of falling diphthongs.
>>>
>>> Hopefully I will continue to find out more during my doctoral years.
>>> I hope this helps and any comments are of course welcome.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ian
>>> On 4 Jan 2021, 5:40 PM +0800, hoelzlandreas at web.de
>>> <hoelzlandreas at web.de>, wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> Johanna is correct in pointing out Janhunen's book. Manchuria is
>>> certainly a problematic term due to its association with
>>> Manchukuo, but it is still employed in academic literature
>>> outside of China where the term dōngběi 东北 'Northeast' is used
>>> instead. But it seems to me that the area under investigation
>>> here is slightly different from what is usually referred to as
>>> Manchuria. The blue area excludes those parts of Manchuria that
>>> since 1858/60 became part of Russia (Primorye region, Sakhalin,
>>> etc.) but includes large parts of Northern China and Mongolia.
>>> As for Northeast Asia, there is also a very different definition
>>> by Chard, Janhunen, myself, and ohters that is much broader and
>>> also includes Northern Asia. Janhunen refers to this as "wider"
>>> Northeast Asia:
>>> "In the widest sense, Northeast Asia as a geographical and
>>> ethnohistorical region can be defined as the entire northeastern
>>> part of the Eurasian continent, delimited by the Yenisei in the
>>> west and the Yellow River in the south. In the northeast, the
>>> region extends, in principle, to the Bering Strait. In a
>>> somewhat narrower framework, Northeast Asia may be defined as
>>> comprising the territory between the Amur and Yellow River
>>> basins, including the Korean Peninsula and the Japanese Islands
>>> in the Pacific coastal zone, but excluding the northeasternmost
>>> limits of what is today the Russian Far East." (Janhunen 2010)
>>> What Janhunen calls "narrow" Northeast Asia is close to the area
>>> you are interested in but includes Japan and other parts of
>>> "Pacific Northeast Asia" as Zgusta calls it.
>>> I would also avoid using "inner" and "outer", which might have
>>> unwanted connotations of being included and excluded, etc.
>>> Concerning "boreal" and "austral" proposed by Dan Slobin, I
>>> agree that the terms would be more neutral. But if I understood
>>> you correctly, "Outer Northeast Asia" would be the surrounding
>>> area on all sides and not only to the South. In this case,
>>> "central" and "peripheral" might be more adequate. But some
>>> parts on your map are also part of peripheral Mainland Southeast
>>> Asia as was pointed out by Hilário de Sousa.
>>> The main question would be, of course, why you need a term for
>>> this area in the first place.
>>> Best,
>>> Andi
>>> *Gesendet:* Sonntag, 03. Januar 2021 um 23:44 Uhr
>>> *Von:* "Bohnemeyer, Juergen" <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
>>> *An:* "Johanna Nichols" <johanna at berkeley.edu>
>>> *Cc:* "LINGTYP" <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>> *Betreff:* Re: [Lingtyp] New name for "Mainland Northeast Asia"
>>> “Manchuria” strikes me politically/historically fraught due to
>>> its association with Manchukuo. But, I’m about as far from being
>>> an expert on this region as a typologist can be, so what do I
>>> know! — Best — Juergen
>>>
>>> > On Jan 3, 2021, at 4:10 PM, Johanna Nichols
>>> <johanna at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Janhunen 1996 uses the term Manchuria for this area and covers
>>> its ethnohistory and linguistic history so comprehensively that
>>> I consider it a precedent for using that term.
>>> >
>>> > Janhunen, Juha. Manchuria: An ethnic history. Helsinki:
>>> Suomalais-Ugrilainen Seura, 1996.
>>> >
>>> > Johanna
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 12:11 PM Dan I. SLOBIN
>>> <slobin at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>> > "Inner" and "outer" convey an implicit hierarchy: some are in
>>> and some are out; some are central and some are peripheral.
>>> > I suggest a simple, objective solution, avoiding the
>>> repetition of names of compass directions, and avoiding what may
>>> > be seen as value judgments: Boreal Northeast Asia and Austral
>>> Southeast Asia -- i.e., North and South, using Latin terms.
>>> > I don't think these terms are opaque: "Boreal" will, for some
>>> people, evoke "Aurora Borealis," the Northern Lights;
>>> > "Austral" will evoke southerly geography, as in Austronesia
>>> and Australia.
>>> >
>>> > Dan Slobin
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 3:28 AM JOO, Ian [Student]
>>> <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk> wrote:
>>> > Dear all,
>>> >
>>> > (I’m sorry if no one cares, but just for the update)
>>> > Although no one suggested any alternatives, I gave it a
>>> thought and changed the terms “Mainland Northeast Asia” to
>>> “Inner Northeast Asia” (as opposed to “Outer Northeast Asia”, i.
>>> e. the rest of Northeast Asia).
>>> > Below is a visualized map of Inner and Outher Northeast Asia.
>>> >
>>> > <Attachment.tiff>
>>> >
>>> > From Hong Kong,
>>> > Ian
>>> > On 31 Dec 2020, 6:13 PM +0800, JOO, Ian [Student]
>>> <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>, wrote:
>>> >> Dear all,
>>> >>
>>> >> In my doctoral research, I refer to the lingistic area
>>> consisting of Korea, Mongolia, and Northeast China (but not
>>> Japan or Russian Far East) as "Mainland Northeast Asia."
>>> >> But this name is problematic, since Siberia is just as
>>> continental (part of "mainland") as well, and I don't intend to
>>> include Siberia.
>>> >> Because of this, I have been thinking of a better name for
>>> this area.
>>> >> The best one I can think of is Astragalia, from the name of
>>> the herb astragalus, which is native to Korea, Northeast China,
>>> Mongolia, and Southern Siberia.
>>> >> The downside of this fancy name is that, upon hearing it,
>>> whoever not familiar with herbalism will have no idea where it
>>> points to, without further explanation.
>>> >> Are there any other name candidates you can think of? If so,
>>> I would welcome all suggestions.
>>> >>
>>> >> From Hong Kong,
>>> >> Ian
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
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>>> > --
>>> > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>>> > Dan I. Slobin
>>> > Professor Emeritus of Psychology and Linguistics
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>>> --
>>> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
>>> Professor, Department of Linguistics
>>> University at Buffalo
>>>
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Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522
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