[Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content (Fariba Sabouri)

Wed Feb 23 09:10:58 UTC 2022

Apologies if this has been mentioned before. In Danish the number 117 is used for ‘many different, a surprisingly high number’. Hartmut

Fra: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> På vegne af Fariba Sabouri
Sendt: 23. februar 2022 08:47
Til: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
Emne: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content (Fariba Sabouri)

Dear Amanda

In modern colloquial Persian there is a conventionalized numeral expression which has an emphatic and emotive function. It is used to express large quantities. For example:

1. šunsad           sâl     piš
    six hundred   year    ago
    'many years ago'

2. šunsad.       tâ      aks      gereft                tâ     yeki=š=o            entexâb   kard
    six hundred CLF  photo   take.PST.3SG  CLF  one=3SG=OM   select      do.PST.3SG
    'She took many photos and finally chose one'

In the above examples, šunsad is the modified form of šešsad *six hundred'. It does not mean six hundred, but it is used to indicate and emphasize the antiquity of something (example 1) or the frequency of something (example 2) and often has a negative connotation. šunsad is used only in this context and is not used for counting.

All the best
Fariba

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: query: instrument voice (William Croft)
   2. Re: Approximative numerals with emotive content (Jess Tauber)
   3. Re: Approximative numerals with emotive content (Rikker Dockum)
   4. Re: Approximative numerals with emotive content (Siva Kalyan)
   5. Re: Approximative numerals with emotive content (Bill Palmer)
   6. Re: Approximative numerals with emotive content (Siva Kalyan)
   7. Re: Approximative numerals with emotive content (Jesse P. Gates)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 22:26:19 +0000
From: William Croft <wcroft at unm.edu<mailto:wcroft at unm.edu>>
To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>"
        <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: instrument voice
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It was mentioned early in the thread that Tzutujil, a Mayan language of the Quichean branch, has a similar construction that is called the instrument voice in Mayan linguistics. It is particularly found in the Quichean branch. What is distinctive about this "voice" (I am not going to quibble about terms) is that it is used in focus (including constituent negation), information ("WH-") question and relative clause constructions, like the better-known "focus antipassive" voice used for A arguments in the same languages (Dayley 1983, 1985; Norman 1978). (The second Tzutujil example that was given is better translated as "It's the stick that he hit me with".)

I bring this up because David's initial examples, from Roon, are translated with relative clauses ("I'm looking for an axe [for Eros to chop the tree with]", "I'm looking for the axe [that Eros chopped the tree with]"); and Bruno Olsson's initial example, from Marind, is a focus construction. The association with focus-type constructions may be the significant link here.

Bill

Dayley, Jon P. 1983. Voice and ergativity in Mayan languages. Studies in Mesoamerican linguistics, ed. Alice Schlichter, Wallace L. Chafe, and Leanne Hinton, 5-119. (Reports from the Survey of California and Other Indian Languages, 4.) Berkeley, Calif.: Survey of California and Other Indian Languages, University of California.

Dayley, Jon P. 1985. Tzutujil Reference Grammar. (University of California Publications in Linguistics, 107.) Berkeley and Los Angeles: University of California Press.

Norman, William M. 1978. Advancement rules and syntactic change: the loss of instrumental voice in Mayan. Proceedings of the Fourth Annual Meeting of the Berkeley Linguistics Society, ed. Jeri J. Jaeger, Anthony C. Woodbury, Farrell Ackerman, Christine Chiarello, Orin D. Gensler, John Kingston, Eve. E. Sweetser, Henry Thompson & Kenneth W. Whistler, 458-76. Berkeley: Berkeley Linguistics Society.

________________________________
From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of Matthew Dryer <dryer at buffalo.edu<mailto:dryer at buffalo.edu>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 2:03 PM
To: David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>>; lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: instrument voice

  [EXTERNAL]

David,

Part of the problem is that your original query did not specify in detail what exactly it is that characterizes these constructions, what it is that you think that they share that is crosslinguistically unusual. Your email only characterized the constructions as similar to Philippine-type instrumental voice and consulting sources on some of the non-Austronesian languages you mentioned, what I found was more like an applicative than a Philippine-type instrumental voice. Your original email seemed to be asking for other examples of Philippine-type instrumental voice, but it is now clear that what you are looking for is a constellation of features that may be an areal feature of the Bird's Head and adjacent areas and it is only in your latest email that it begins to emerge what that constellation of features is.

But I acknowledge that the Hatam construction and others like it are definitely not prototypical applicative constructions, precisely because they involve a type of serial verb construction. From where I am sitting, what seems unusual about the construction is that it involves a combination of a serial verb construction with an applicative construction, without much similarity to Philippine-type instrumental voice. But if your interest in finding out if there are other languages with similar constructions, the issue of whether it is similar to Philippine-type instrumental voice seems irrelevant.

Perhaps if you spelled out more clearly what the constellation of features is that you see as characterizing the construction, people might be able identify other cases. My hunch is that what you are looking for is rare outside your area if it exists at all.

Matthew

From: David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>>
Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 3:29 PM
To: Matthew Dryer <dryer at buffalo.edu<mailto:dryer at buffalo.edu>>, "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>" <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: instrument voice

Matthew,

The construction that I'm interested in here (which does not seem to differ significantly across the genealogical boundary between Austronesian and non-Austronesian) does not seem to be a prototypical case of any familiar construction — which is what makes it interesting to me.  Much of the discussion has focused on the differences between it and Philippine instrumental voice constructions, which I am not denying.

But you can hardly say that we're dealing here with a prototypical applicative either.  What's crucial is that in most or all of the languages under consideration, the instrument NP cannot occur in post-verbal position, which is where you'd expect it to be in an applicative construction in an SVO language.  Thus, for the corresponding prefix k- in Austronesian Biak, van Heuvel (2006:420) writes that "it seems to be used only when this instrument is topical" — which is kind of the opposite of how things work in many familiar applicative constructions.  Call it what you like (topic, subject, whatever), but the grammatical functions and behaviour associated with the instrument NP are very different not only from those of the corresponding NPs in clauses without instrumental verbal marking, but also from those of instrument NPs in other languages with an instrumental applicative marker.

As your Hatam example suggests, there is also an affinity between the construction in question and serial verb constructions.  Peel off the morphology and what you've got is a garden-variety Mainland Southeast Asian language SVC construction along the lines of TAKE STICK HIT SNAKE.  Alternatively, transform your Hatam inflectional forms to periphrastic and you get the corresponding construction in isolating Papuan Malay

sa

ambil

kayu

sa

pake

pukul

ular

1SG

take

stick

1SG

use

hit

snake

'I hit the snake with a stick'

where pake 'use' is the periphrastic counterpart of the instrumental verbal prefix in Hatam, Biak, etc.  (This construction is unavailable in other varieties of Malay, which suggests that it is due to substrate influence from the local New Guinea languages.)

I would conclude that the construction in question bears certain family resemblances to instrumental voice constructions, applicatives, and serial verb constructions, but is not a prototypical instance of any of these.  Given its recurrence in (at least) three genealogically unrelated families of languages (Austronesian, East Bird's Head, and isolate Hatam), what this discussion seems to me to be suggesting is that the construction in question merits a term all to its own, so that its relationship to other constructions can be productively discussed.

David

On 22/02/2022 21:20, Matthew Dryer wrote:

David,

Preverbal position in an SVO language seems to me to be a very weak factor as a subject property. There are two additional overlapping considerations that would normally be considered relevant. First, is the noun phrase in question in the same preverbal position as subjects? And second, does the S/A lack subject properties that it normally has.

Without these two additional considerations, it would seem that one would have to say that what in English What is John eating? is subject-like, since it is a preverbal constituent in an SVO language. But it does not occur in the same preverbal position as subjects and the subject does not lack its normal subject properties. The same could be said about rice in It is rice that John is eating.

You ask why some of us are talking about applicatives in their responses. One reason is that you cite Hatam, Sougb, Moskona, and Meyah as instances of what you are characterizing as constructions like Philippine instrumental voice. But these seem much more like canonical applicatives and quite unlike Philippine instrumental voice.

In the following example from Hatam, for example,

Ni-ba

tom

ni-bi-bui

wou.

1EXC-use

stick

1EXC-INS-hit

snake

We used a stick to hit the snake. (Reesink 1999: 54)

the fact that tom 'stick' precedes the verb for 'hit' is presumably best explained in terms of its being the complement of ba 'use' and there is no evidence that the A of 'hit' lacks any normal subject properties. This is very different from instrumental voice in Philippine languages.

Matthew

From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>><mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>><mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>>
Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 7:42 AM
To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>"<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>><mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: instrument voice

Dear all,

I must confess to being a little puzzled at how the responses to my original query seem to have focused largely on applicatives.  To cite just one example ...

On 22/02/2022 08:31, Martin Haspelmath wrote:

Once we have clear definitions, we can begin to answer David's question whether languages with instrumental applicatives only are rare outside of Austronesian.

A fair question, but not the one that was asking; I was asking whether languages with *instrument voice* only are rare outside of Austronesian.  Actually, what I really meant to ask is whether constructions like those in Roon and other proximate languages are attested elsewhere in the world; that is to say, constructions in which a verb hosts an affix denoting an instrument whose function in the clause looks more like a subject or topic than like a direct object or oblique.  I used the term "instrument voice" because this seemed to me to be the most appropriate term, or, to put it differently, the constructions i am looking at seemed to me to be more similar to, say, a garden-variety instrument-voice construction in Tagalog, than anything else I could think of, including most prototypical applicative constructions.  In response to my query, Mark came through with the Tzutujil example, and one or two others have provided potential leads that I will be following up on soon.

But my choice of terms led to a terminological debate, with several of you expressing your opinions that the constructions in question, in Roon and other New Guinea languages, are instances of applicatives. To which I would respond with a question: would you also characterize a Philippine-type instrumental voice construction as an applicative?

I wouldn't, which is why I phrased the question in the way that I did.  Note that I would still acknowledge the merits of a sometimes-proposed analysis of Philippine voice in which, say, the instrumental voice is analyzed compositionally as consisting of (a) an applicative "promoting" oblique to direct object; in combination with (b) a passive "promoting" a direct object to subject.  But under such an analysis, while an applicative construction *forms part of* the instrument voice construction, the instrument voice construction as a whole is more than just an applicative.  (As Mark points out, a similar analysis is clearly called for in the case of Indonesian, in which passive di- and applicative -kan frequently co-occur.)  However, in the New Guinea case, there is no evidence that I am aware of for such a compositional analysis; the prefixes that express what I was calling instrumental voice provide no evidence for any kind of complex internal structure.  Indeed, for this reason, constructions such as those with the Roon u- prefix seem to me to offer "better" examples of "instrument voice" than even the Philippine constructions for which the term was originally coined.

David

--

David Gil

Senior Scientist (Associate)

Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution

Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology

Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany

Email: gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de><mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>>

Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713

Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091

--

David Gil

Senior Scientist (Associate)

Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution

Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology

Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany

Email: gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de><mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>>

Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713

Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091

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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:19:20 -0500
From: Jess Tauber <tetrahedralpt at gmail.com<mailto:tetrahedralpt at gmail.com>>
To: rgiomi at campus.ul.pt<mailto:rgiomi at campus.ul.pt>
Cc: Amanda Kann <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>, LINGTYP
        <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content
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Yahgan (a nearly extinct genetic isolate from Tierra del Fuego) has (or
had) the form ma:nara (colon : marks tenseness of vowel preceding) which
appears to denote 'more than (someone or something else), as when someone
is in a rivalry situation, even if they don't know it. And it has an
emotive connotation, since of the several example sentences given in the
dictionary (which is all we have) has the speaker complaining about it.
hu:lu: sa ma:nara la:ride: amaim, hai ba:f ku:kan  big/large you (sg.)
much-more gathered-and-carried-in-a-skin-past tense fruit/fungus, I not
same  = What a lot of fruit/tree fungus you got and brought home, so much
more than I did.' Etymologically it seems to be composed of mana- 'beyond'
(the usual limits) plus a reduced form of wuru: 'more' (such reduced forms
of wuru: appear in several internal reconstructions). sa we: ma:nara
shabagu:da:gu:a  You (sg.) may/will much-more
be-happy/enjoy-for-onself-future  'You may or will enjoy yourself without
me'. kv-ma:nara shabaguhrgaiagata, kvnjin ba:f matu:me:akonata me:am   he
(sg)- much-more happy/enjoy-progressive-for-self, he (sg.) not fear (for)
self= 'He rejoices (though no one else does) and does not fear for himself
or his own people'.

Jess Tauber

 '

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 1:57 PM Riccardo Giomi <rgiomi at campus.ul.pt<mailto:rgiomi at campus.ul.pt>> wrote:

> Dear Amanda and all,
>
> How about English bajillion/bazillion and its (near-)equivalents in other
> languages, such as Italian 'fantastilione', 'fantastiliardo' (a mashup of
> 'fantastico' and 'milione/miliardo', originally coined by some translator
> of Donald Duck comics)?
>
> Apart from that, I tend to agree with Federica Mazzitelli and would add
> that, in Italian, basically any number above let's say three or four can be
> used as an emotionally loaded hyperbole, as long as the context is such
> that the number will be perceived as exceeding a plausible quantification
> of the referent at stake.
>
> Best,
> Riccardo
>
>
> Il mar 22 feb 2022, 15:28 Amanda Kann <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>> ha scritto:
>
>> Dear typologists,
>>
>>
>>
>> (Apologies to those who have already seen this query through
>> LinguistList!)
>>
>> I'm looking for corresponding expressions (in any language) to the
>> approximative numeral phrases in the examples below – conventionalized
>> numeral expressions which typically express larger, approximate numeric
>> quantities and encode some kind of emotive function.
>> I'm interested in the composition and value of these numerals, as well as
>> their emphatic and emotive functions – if there are other expressions in
>> the numeral domain in your language(s) that carry a similar illocutionary
>> force, I would love to hear about them as well!
>>
>> Swedish [swe]: (from Bloggmix 2013, accessed through
>> http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp)
>> Det finns nämligen femtioelva sorters myror.
>> 'There are actually many types of ants' (lit. 'There are actually
>> fifty-eleven types of ants')
>>
>> French [fra]: (Lavric 2010, https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008)
>> Il n’y a pas trente-six façons de voir la chose.
>> 'There aren't very many ways of seeing the thing' (lit. 'There aren't
>> thirty-six ways of seeing the thing')
>>
>> Danish [dan]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through
>> http://opus.nlpl.eu)
>> Han fortalte mig 117 gange, at han ikke gjorde hende noget.
>> 'He told me a thousand times that he didn't do anything to her' (lit. 'He
>> told me 117 times that he didn't do anything to her')
>>
>> English [eng]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through
>> http://opus.nlpl.eu)
>> For the umpteenth time, we are not getting a dog.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you very much in advance for any tips, examples or comments!
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Amanda Kann
>>
>> *____________________________________*
>>
>> *Amanda Kann*
>>
>> Institutionen för lingvistik | *Department of **Linguistics*
>>
>> *Stockholms universitet | Stockholm University*
>> 106 91 Stockholm
>>
>>
>> *amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se> <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>*
>> www.ling.su.se<http://www.ling.su.se>
>>
>> Personuppgiftsbehandling vid Stockholms universitet
>> <https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter>
>> *____________________________________*
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 19:16:01 -0500
From: Rikker Dockum <rikker.dockum at gmail.com<mailto:rikker.dockum at gmail.com>>
To: Amanda Kann <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>
Cc: LINGTYP <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content
Message-ID:
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A few from Thai:

ล้านเจ็ด สิบเอดแสน
/lá:n-cèt sìp-èt sɛ̌:n/
million-seven eleven hundred.thousand
"1.7 million, 11-hundred thousand"
A hyperbolically large number which comically violates typical large number
syntax. It is also a four-syllable elaborate expression
<https://escholarship.org/content/qt1h44v99w/qt1h44v99w_noSplash_885797339065fc34897d1147e04c23dc.pdf?t=pfpo99>
with internal-rhyme in an A B B C pattern of of /cet/ and /et/. (Note that
in Thai these can have an optional unstressed fifth syllable in the center,
as is the case here: /sìp/ is not stressed in /sìp-èt/.)

ร้อยแปด
/rɔ́:j pɛ̀:t/
hundred eight
lit. "a hundred and eight", corresponding roughly to "umpteen". Usage
varies between hyperbole and more neutral/literal usage, but it's probably
most frequently used in the hyperbolic sense. It's a reference to the sacred
number 108
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_(number)#Religion_and_the_arts> in
Dharmic religions. (Thailand even has a convenience store chain 108 Shop
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_Shop>, so named presumably because they
sell everything.)

ร้อยแปดพันก้าว
/rɔ́:j pɛ̀:t pʰan kâ:w/
hundred eight thousand nine
"a hundred and eight, a thousand and nine" meaning "umpteen", an elaborated
version of the previous one!

Best,
Rikker

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 6:20 PM Jess Tauber <tetrahedralpt at gmail.com<mailto:tetrahedralpt at gmail.com>> wrote:

> Yahgan (a nearly extinct genetic isolate from Tierra del Fuego) has (or
> had) the form ma:nara (colon : marks tenseness of vowel preceding) which
> appears to denote 'more than (someone or something else), as when someone
> is in a rivalry situation, even if they don't know it. And it has an
> emotive connotation, since of the several example sentences given in the
> dictionary (which is all we have) has the speaker complaining about it.
> hu:lu: sa ma:nara la:ride: amaim, hai ba:f ku:kan  big/large you (sg.)
> much-more gathered-and-carried-in-a-skin-past tense fruit/fungus, I not
> same  = What a lot of fruit/tree fungus you got and brought home, so much
> more than I did.' Etymologically it seems to be composed of mana- 'beyond'
> (the usual limits) plus a reduced form of wuru: 'more' (such reduced forms
> of wuru: appear in several internal reconstructions). sa we: ma:nara
> shabagu:da:gu:a  You (sg.) may/will much-more
> be-happy/enjoy-for-onself-future  'You may or will enjoy yourself without
> me'. kv-ma:nara shabaguhrgaiagata, kvnjin ba:f matu:me:akonata me:am   he
> (sg)- much-more happy/enjoy-progressive-for-self, he (sg.) not fear (for)
> self= 'He rejoices (though no one else does) and does not fear for himself
> or his own people'.
>
> Jess Tauber
>
>
>  '
>
> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 1:57 PM Riccardo Giomi <rgiomi at campus.ul.pt<mailto:rgiomi at campus.ul.pt>>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Amanda and all,
>>
>> How about English bajillion/bazillion and its (near-)equivalents in other
>> languages, such as Italian 'fantastilione', 'fantastiliardo' (a mashup of
>> 'fantastico' and 'milione/miliardo', originally coined by some translator
>> of Donald Duck comics)?
>>
>> Apart from that, I tend to agree with Federica Mazzitelli and would add
>> that, in Italian, basically any number above let's say three or four can be
>> used as an emotionally loaded hyperbole, as long as the context is such
>> that the number will be perceived as exceeding a plausible quantification
>> of the referent at stake.
>>
>> Best,
>> Riccardo
>>
>>
>> Il mar 22 feb 2022, 15:28 Amanda Kann <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>> ha scritto:
>>
>>> Dear typologists,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (Apologies to those who have already seen this query through
>>> LinguistList!)
>>>
>>> I'm looking for corresponding expressions (in any language) to the
>>> approximative numeral phrases in the examples below – conventionalized
>>> numeral expressions which typically express larger, approximate numeric
>>> quantities and encode some kind of emotive function.
>>> I'm interested in the composition and value of these numerals, as well
>>> as their emphatic and emotive functions – if there are other expressions in
>>> the numeral domain in your language(s) that carry a similar illocutionary
>>> force, I would love to hear about them as well!
>>>
>>> Swedish [swe]: (from Bloggmix 2013, accessed through
>>> http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp)
>>> Det finns nämligen femtioelva sorters myror.
>>> 'There are actually many types of ants' (lit. 'There are actually
>>> fifty-eleven types of ants')
>>>
>>> French [fra]: (Lavric 2010, https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008)
>>> Il n’y a pas trente-six façons de voir la chose.
>>> 'There aren't very many ways of seeing the thing' (lit. 'There aren't
>>> thirty-six ways of seeing the thing')
>>>
>>> Danish [dan]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through
>>> http://opus.nlpl.eu)
>>> Han fortalte mig 117 gange, at han ikke gjorde hende noget.
>>> 'He told me a thousand times that he didn't do anything to her' (lit.
>>> 'He told me 117 times that he didn't do anything to her')
>>>
>>> English [eng]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through
>>> http://opus.nlpl.eu)
>>> For the umpteenth time, we are not getting a dog.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you very much in advance for any tips, examples or comments!
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Amanda Kann
>>>
>>> *____________________________________*
>>>
>>> *Amanda Kann*
>>>
>>> Institutionen för lingvistik | *Department of **Linguistics*
>>>
>>> *Stockholms universitet | Stockholm University*
>>> 106 91 Stockholm
>>>
>>>
>>> *amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se> <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>*
>>> www.ling.su.se<http://www.ling.su.se>
>>>
>>> Personuppgiftsbehandling vid Stockholms universitet
>>> <https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter>
>>> *____________________________________*
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 10:19:30 +1000
From: Siva Kalyan <sivakalyan.princeton at gmail.com<mailto:sivakalyan.princeton at gmail.com>>
To: Amanda Kann <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>
Cc: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>"
        <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content
Message-ID: <957D5202-3B6F-4ED9-9FEB-1D523ACA176E at gmail.com<mailto:957D5202-3B6F-4ED9-9FEB-1D523ACA176E at gmail.com>>
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I think I’ve heard muppattēẓu ‘37’ used this way in Tamil, though I’m not sure if it’s conventionalised or just an idiosyncratic preference.

Siva

> On 23 Feb 2022, at 12:27 am, Amanda Kann <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>> wrote:
>
> Dear typologists,
>
> (Apologies to those who have already seen this query through LinguistList!)
> I'm looking for corresponding expressions (in any language) to the approximative numeral phrases in the examples below – conventionalized numeral expressions which typically express larger, approximate numeric quantities and encode some kind of emotive function.
> I'm interested in the composition and value of these numerals, as well as their emphatic and emotive functions – if there are other expressions in the numeral domain in your language(s) that carry a similar illocutionary force, I would love to hear about them as well!
>
> Swedish [swe]: (from Bloggmix 2013, accessed through http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp <http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp>)
> Det finns nämligen femtioelva sorters myror.
> 'There are actually many types of ants' (lit. 'There are actually fifty-eleven types of ants')
>
> French [fra]: (Lavric 2010, https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008 <https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008>)
> Il n’y a pas trente-six façons de voir la chose.
> 'There aren't very many ways of seeing the thing' (lit. 'There aren't thirty-six ways of seeing the thing')
>
> Danish [dan]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through http://opus.nlpl.eu <http://opus.nlpl.eu/>)
> Han fortalte mig 117 gange, at han ikke gjorde hende noget.
> 'He told me a thousand times that he didn't do anything to her' (lit. 'He told me 117 times that he didn't do anything to her')
>
> English [eng]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through http://opus.nlpl.eu <http://opus.nlpl.eu/>)
> For the umpteenth time, we are not getting a dog.
>
>
> Thank you very much in advance for any tips, examples or comments!
> Best regards,
> Amanda Kann
> ____________________________________
> Amanda Kann
> Institutionen för lingvistik | Department of Linguistics
> Stockholms universitet | Stockholm University
> 106 91 Stockholm
>
> amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se> <mailto:amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>
> www.ling.su.se<http://www.ling.su.se> <http://www.ling.su.se/>
> Personuppgiftsbehandling vid Stockholms universitet <https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter>
> ____________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 00:25:53 +0000
From: Bill Palmer <bill.palmer at newcastle.edu.au<mailto:bill.palmer at newcastle.edu.au>>
To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>"
        <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content
Message-ID:
        <SYYP282MB17744DC94771826FE045255EC83C9 at SYYP282MB1774.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM<mailto:SYYP282MB17744DC94771826FE045255EC83C9 at SYYP282MB1774.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>>

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Hi Amanda

Someone’s probably already pointed this out, but English also has ‘squillion’ and ‘gazillion’ for much larger indeterminate numbers than ‘umpteen’.

Bill

Associate Professor Bill Palmer
Lead Investigator, OzSpace project
Landscape, language and culture in Indigenous Australia.
Vice-President (Research Support), Australian Linguistics Society

bill.palmer at newcastle.edu.au<mailto:bill.palmer at newcastle.edu.au><mailto:bill.palmer at newcastle.edu.au<mailto:bill.palmer at newcastle.edu.au>>
newcastle.edu.au/profile/Bill-Palmer<http://newcastle.edu.au/profile/Bill-Palmer><https://newcastle.edu.au/profile/firstname-lastname>
College of Human & Social Futures
The University of Newcastle
University Drive, Callaghan NSW 2308 Australia

From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> On Behalf Of Sebastian Nordhoff
Sent: Wednesday, 23 February 2022 3:16 AM
To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content

On 2/22/22 16:53, Bastian Persohn wrote:
> Dear Amanda,
>
> I’n not entirely sure if this is what you are looking for, but
> colloquial German has /drölf, /a blend of /drei/ ’three’ and
> /zwölf/ ’twelve’.
>
> It commonly means something like ‚any number between three and twelve‘
> but can also be used in the sense of ‚an unknown or unspecified large
> quantity‘.

To me, "drölf" has a clear value of '13', as it follows "elf" '11' and
"zwölf" '12'. The equivalent in pseudo-English would be 'threlve'.

For higher indeterminate numbers, you can use "drölfzig" 'threlvety' and
"drölfzigtausend" 'threlvety thousand'. As in English, the suffix "-zig"
'-ty' can only combine with single digit numbers, which adds to the
humourous effect (cf. "femtio-elva", where the "elva" part presumably
cannot be used in compounds either).

I feel that these numbers are not "approximative" though, but rather
"indeterminate". "femtioelva" does not mean ~50, "quarante-douze" does
not mean ~50, and 117 does not mean ~100, but rather "a somewhat (too)
large number where the speaker does not really have an idea of the
magnitude"

For approximative numbers, the Romance "centinaio", "centaine",
"centena" have been mentioned, but this seems to be different in the
sense that here the speaker actually commits to a certain (albeit fuzzy)
value.

Best wishes
Sebastian

Rather than emotive, it’s jocular, though. Wiktionary lists
> it as 'fiktive ganze Zahl‘ [fictive whole number]
> (https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/dr%C3%B6lf<https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/dr%C3%B6lf>
> <https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/drölf<https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/dr%C3%B6lf><https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/drölf<https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/dr%C3%B6lf>>>).
>
> Best,
> Bastian
>
>
>> Am 22.02.2022 um 15:27 schrieb Amanda Kann <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>
<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>%20%0b>>> <mailto:amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>>:
>>
>> Dear typologists,
>> (Apologies to those who have already seen this query through
>> LinguistList!)
>> I'm looking for corresponding expressions (in any language) to the
>> approximative numeral phrases in the examples below – conventionalized
>> numeral expressions which typically express larger, approximate
>> numeric quantities and encode some kind of emotive function.
>> I'm interested in the composition and value of these numerals, as well
>> as their emphatic and emotive functions – if there are other
>> expressions in the numeral domain in your language(s) that carry a
>> similar illocutionary force, I would love to hear about them as well!
>>
>> Swedish [swe]: (from Bloggmix 2013, accessed through
>> http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp<http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp> <http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp<http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp>>)
>> Det finns nämligen femtioelva sorters myror.
>> 'There are actually many types of ants' (lit. 'There are actually
>> fifty-eleven types of ants')
>>
>> French [fra]: (Lavric 2010,https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008<https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008>
>> <https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008<https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008>>)
>> Il n’y a pas trente-six façons de voir la chose.
>> 'There aren't very many ways of seeing the thing' (lit. 'There aren't
>> thirty-six ways of seeing the thing')
>>
>> Danish [dan]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through
>> http://opus.nlpl.eu<http://opus.nlpl.eu> <http://opus.nlpl.eu/<http://opus.nlpl.eu/>>)
>> Han fortalte mig 117 gange, at han ikke gjorde hende noget.
>> 'He told me a thousand times that he didn't do anything to her' (lit.
>> 'He told me 117 times that he didn't do anything to her')
>>
>> English [eng]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through
>> http://opus.nlpl.eu<http://opus.nlpl.eu> <http://opus.nlpl.eu/<http://opus.nlpl.eu/>>)
>> For the umpteenth time, we are not getting a dog.
>>
>> Thank you very much in advance for any tips, examples or comments!
>> Best regards,
>> Amanda Kann
>> *____________________________________*
>> *Amanda Kann*
>> Institutionen för lingvistik | /Department of //Linguistics/
>> *Stockholms universitet | /Stockholm University/*
>> 106 91 Stockholm
>>
>> _amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se><mailto:_amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>> <mailto:amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>_
>> www.ling.su.se<http://www.ling.su.se><http://www.ling.su.se> <http://www.ling.su.se/<http://www.ling.su.se>>
>> Personuppgiftsbehandling vid Stockholms universitet
>> <https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter<https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter>>
>> *____________________________________*
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
>> <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp<http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp>
>> <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp<http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp<http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp>
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 10:31:00 +1000
From: Siva Kalyan <sivakalyan.princeton at gmail.com<mailto:sivakalyan.princeton at gmail.com>>
To: Rikker Dockum <rikker.dockum at gmail.com<mailto:rikker.dockum at gmail.com>>
Cc: Amanda Kann <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>, LINGTYP
        <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content
Message-ID: <D8BDB27E-EEFD-42A3-9EB7-566014BADFB9 at gmail.com<mailto:D8BDB27E-EEFD-42A3-9EB7-566014BADFB9 at gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I would add that 1008 is also a sacred number in Dharmic religions, though I don’t know if it is used to mean “umpteen”.

Also, this reminds me that in Japanese, the word for “grocery store” is 八百屋 yaoya, literally ‘800 shop’. However, yao- cannot (in modern Japanese) be used on its own to mean ‘800’ (the characters 八百 are usually given the Sino-Japanese reading happyaku), though in a literary register it is still found in the word 八百万 yaoyorozu ‘eight hundred myriads (i.e. 8 million)’, which is indeed used as a hyperbolically large number.

Siva

> On 23 Feb 2022, at 10:16 am, Rikker Dockum <rikker.dockum at gmail.com<mailto:rikker.dockum at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> A few from Thai:
>
> ล้านเจ็ด สิบเอดแสน
> /lá:n-cèt sìp-èt sɛ̌:n/
> million-seven eleven hundred.thousand
> "1.7 million, 11-hundred thousand"
> A hyperbolically large number which comically violates typical large number syntax. It is also a four-syllable elaborate expression <https://escholarship.org/content/qt1h44v99w/qt1h44v99w_noSplash_885797339065fc34897d1147e04c23dc.pdf?t=pfpo99> with internal-rhyme in an A B B C pattern of of /cet/ and /et/. (Note that in Thai these can have an optional unstressed fifth syllable in the center, as is the case here: /sìp/ is not stressed in /sìp-èt/.)
>
> ร้อยแปด
> /rɔ́:j pɛ̀:t/
> hundred eight
> lit. "a hundred and eight", corresponding roughly to "umpteen". Usage varies between hyperbole and more neutral/literal usage, but it's probably most frequently used in the hyperbolic sense. It's a reference to the sacred number 108 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_(number)#Religion_and_the_arts> in Dharmic religions. (Thailand even has a convenience store chain 108 Shop <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_Shop>, so named presumably because they sell everything.)
>
> ร้อยแปดพันก้าว
> /rɔ́:j pɛ̀:t pʰan kâ:w/
> hundred eight thousand nine
> "a hundred and eight, a thousand and nine" meaning "umpteen", an elaborated version of the previous one!
>
> Best,
> Rikker
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 6:20 PM Jess Tauber <tetrahedralpt at gmail.com<mailto:tetrahedralpt at gmail.com> <mailto:tetrahedralpt at gmail.com<mailto:tetrahedralpt at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> Yahgan (a nearly extinct genetic isolate from Tierra del Fuego) has (or had) the form ma:nara (colon : marks tenseness of vowel preceding) which appears to denote 'more than (someone or something else), as when someone is in a rivalry situation, even if they don't know it. And it has an emotive connotation, since of the several example sentences given in the dictionary (which is all we have) has the speaker complaining about it.
> hu:lu: sa ma:nara la:ride: amaim, hai ba:f ku:kan  big/large you (sg.) much-more gathered-and-carried-in-a-skin-past tense fruit/fungus, I not same  = What a lot of fruit/tree fungus you got and brought home, so much more than I did.' Etymologically it seems to be composed of mana- 'beyond' (the usual limits) plus a reduced form of wuru: 'more' (such reduced forms of wuru: appear in several internal reconstructions). sa we: ma:nara shabagu:da:gu:a  You (sg.) may/will much-more be-happy/enjoy-for-onself-future  'You may or will enjoy yourself without me'. kv-ma:nara shabaguhrgaiagata, kvnjin ba:f matu:me:akonata me:am   he (sg)- much-more happy/enjoy-progressive-for-self, he (sg.) not fear (for) self= 'He rejoices (though no one else does) and does not fear for himself or his own people'.
>
> Jess Tauber
>
>
>  '
>
> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 1:57 PM Riccardo Giomi <rgiomi at campus.ul.pt<mailto:rgiomi at campus.ul.pt> <mailto:rgiomi at campus.ul.pt<mailto:rgiomi at campus.ul.pt>>> wrote:
> Dear Amanda and all,
>
> How about English bajillion/bazillion and its (near-)equivalents in other languages, such as Italian 'fantastilione', 'fantastiliardo' (a mashup of 'fantastico' and 'milione/miliardo', originally coined by some translator of Donald Duck comics)?
>
> Apart from that, I tend to agree with Federica Mazzitelli and would add that, in Italian, basically any number above let's say three or four can be used as an emotionally loaded hyperbole, as long as the context is such that the number will be perceived as exceeding a plausible quantification of the referent at stake.
>
> Best,
> Riccardo
>
>
> Il mar 22 feb 2022, 15:28 Amanda Kann <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se> <mailto:amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>> ha scritto:
> Dear typologists,
>
>
>
> (Apologies to those who have already seen this query through LinguistList!)
>
> I'm looking for corresponding expressions (in any language) to the approximative numeral phrases in the examples below – conventionalized numeral expressions which typically express larger, approximate numeric quantities and encode some kind of emotive function.
> I'm interested in the composition and value of these numerals, as well as their emphatic and emotive functions – if there are other expressions in the numeral domain in your language(s) that carry a similar illocutionary force, I would love to hear about them as well!
>
> Swedish [swe]: (from Bloggmix 2013, accessed through http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp <http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp>)
> Det finns nämligen femtioelva sorters myror.
> 'There are actually many types of ants' (lit. 'There are actually fifty-eleven types of ants')
>
> French [fra]: (Lavric 2010, https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008 <https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008>)
> Il n’y a pas trente-six façons de voir la chose.
> 'There aren't very many ways of seeing the thing' (lit. 'There aren't thirty-six ways of seeing the thing')
>
> Danish [dan]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through http://opus.nlpl.eu <http://opus.nlpl.eu/>)
> Han fortalte mig 117 gange, at han ikke gjorde hende noget.
> 'He told me a thousand times that he didn't do anything to her' (lit. 'He told me 117 times that he didn't do anything to her')
>
> English [eng]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through http://opus.nlpl.eu <http://opus.nlpl.eu/>)
> For the umpteenth time, we are not getting a dog.
>
>
>
>
> Thank you very much in advance for any tips, examples or comments!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Amanda Kann
>
> ____________________________________
>
> Amanda Kann
>
> Institutionen för lingvistik | Department of Linguistics
>
> Stockholms universitet | Stockholm University
> 106 91 Stockholm
>
>
> amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se> <mailto:amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>
> www.ling.su.se<http://www.ling.su.se> <http://www.ling.su.se/>
> Personuppgiftsbehandling vid Stockholms universitet <https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter>
> ____________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp>
> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 11:18:13 +0800
From: "Jesse P. Gates" <stauskad at gmail.com<mailto:stauskad at gmail.com>>
To: Siva Kalyan <sivakalyan.princeton at gmail.com<mailto:sivakalyan.princeton at gmail.com>>
Cc: Rikker Dockum <rikker.dockum at gmail.com<mailto:rikker.dockum at gmail.com>>, LINGTYP
        <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>,  Amanda Kann <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content
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Hi Amanda,

Chinese (Mandarin) has some interesting "approximative numerals with
emotive content."

*1. 万 wàn '10,000 (ten-thousand)'.* The emotive usage seems to indicate
'many' or 'abundance'.

万事如意
ten-thousand things according.to<http://according.to> meaning
'May all go well with you.'

万一...
ten-thousand one
'Just in case...' (as in "out of ten-thousand chances, there still is that
outside chance that such and such will happen.")

*2. 八 bā 'eight'.* While 'eight' is an auspicious number (folk etymology:
because it rhymes with *fā* as in 发财 ‘become wealthy'), it also shows up as
a modifier indicating 'entirety' or 'completely'.

胡说八道
careless speak eight way
'speak complete nonsense'

乱七八糟
'a complete mess'

四面八方
four faces eight places
'in all directions, everywhere'

As you can see, 'four' and 'seven' are there also, but lead up to 'eight'.
四 'four' is an unlucky number as (folk etymologically) it rhymes with 死 'to
die'.

--
Best regards,

*Jesse P. Gates, PhD*Nankai University, School of Literature 南开大学文学院
https://nankai.academia.edu/JesseGates

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 8:31 AM Siva Kalyan <sivakalyan.princeton at gmail.com<mailto:sivakalyan.princeton at gmail.com>>
wrote:

> I would add that 1008 is also a sacred number in Dharmic religions, though
> I don’t know if it is used to mean “umpteen”.
>
> Also, this reminds me that in Japanese, the word for “grocery store” is
> 八百屋 *yaoya*, literally ‘800 shop’. However, *yao-* cannot (in modern
> Japanese) be used on its own to mean ‘800’ (the characters 八百 are usually
> given the Sino-Japanese reading *happyaku*), though in a literary
> register it is still found in the word 八百万 *yaoyorozu* ‘eight hundred
> myriads (i.e. 8 million)’, which is indeed used as a hyperbolically large
> number.
>
> Siva
>
> On 23 Feb 2022, at 10:16 am, Rikker Dockum <rikker.dockum at gmail.com<mailto:rikker.dockum at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> A few from Thai:
>
> ล้านเจ็ด สิบเอดแสน
> /lá:n-cèt sìp-èt sɛ̌:n/
> million-seven eleven hundred.thousand
> "1.7 million, 11-hundred thousand"
> A hyperbolically large number which comically violates typical large
> number syntax. It is also a four-syllable elaborate expression
> <https://escholarship.org/content/qt1h44v99w/qt1h44v99w_noSplash_885797339065fc34897d1147e04c23dc.pdf?t=pfpo99>
> with internal-rhyme in an A B B C pattern of of /cet/ and /et/. (Note that
> in Thai these can have an optional unstressed fifth syllable in the center,
> as is the case here: /sìp/ is not stressed in /sìp-èt/.)
>
> ร้อยแปด
> /rɔ́:j pɛ̀:t/
> hundred eight
> lit. "a hundred and eight", corresponding roughly to "umpteen". Usage
> varies between hyperbole and more neutral/literal usage, but it's probably
> most frequently used in the hyperbolic sense. It's a reference to the sacred
> number 108
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_(number)#Religion_and_the_arts> in
> Dharmic religions. (Thailand even has a convenience store chain 108 Shop
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_Shop>, so named presumably because
> they sell everything.)
>
> ร้อยแปดพันก้าว
> /rɔ́:j pɛ̀:t pʰan kâ:w/
> hundred eight thousand nine
> "a hundred and eight, a thousand and nine" meaning "umpteen", an
> elaborated version of the previous one!
>
> Best,
> Rikker
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 6:20 PM Jess Tauber <tetrahedralpt at gmail.com<mailto:tetrahedralpt at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
>> Yahgan (a nearly extinct genetic isolate from Tierra del Fuego) has (or
>> had) the form ma:nara (colon : marks tenseness of vowel preceding) which
>> appears to denote 'more than (someone or something else), as when someone
>> is in a rivalry situation, even if they don't know it. And it has an
>> emotive connotation, since of the several example sentences given in the
>> dictionary (which is all we have) has the speaker complaining about it.
>> hu:lu: sa ma:nara la:ride: amaim, hai ba:f ku:kan  big/large you (sg.)
>> much-more gathered-and-carried-in-a-skin-past tense fruit/fungus, I not
>> same  = What a lot of fruit/tree fungus you got and brought home, so much
>> more than I did.' Etymologically it seems to be composed of mana- 'beyond'
>> (the usual limits) plus a reduced form of wuru: 'more' (such reduced forms
>> of wuru: appear in several internal reconstructions). sa we: ma:nara
>> shabagu:da:gu:a  You (sg.) may/will much-more
>> be-happy/enjoy-for-onself-future  'You may or will enjoy yourself without
>> me'. kv-ma:nara shabaguhrgaiagata, kvnjin ba:f matu:me:akonata me:am   he
>> (sg)- much-more happy/enjoy-progressive-for-self, he (sg.) not fear (for)
>> self= 'He rejoices (though no one else does) and does not fear for himself
>> or his own people'.
>>
>> Jess Tauber
>>
>>
>>  '
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 1:57 PM Riccardo Giomi <rgiomi at campus.ul.pt<mailto:rgiomi at campus.ul.pt>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Amanda and all,
>>>
>>> How about English bajillion/bazillion and its (near-)equivalents in
>>> other languages, such as Italian 'fantastilione', 'fantastiliardo' (a
>>> mashup of 'fantastico' and 'milione/miliardo', originally coined by some
>>> translator of Donald Duck comics)?
>>>
>>> Apart from that, I tend to agree with Federica Mazzitelli and would add
>>> that, in Italian, basically any number above let's say three or four can be
>>> used as an emotionally loaded hyperbole, as long as the context is such
>>> that the number will be perceived as exceeding a plausible quantification
>>> of the referent at stake.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Riccardo
>>>
>>>
>>> Il mar 22 feb 2022, 15:28 Amanda Kann <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>> ha scritto:
>>>
>>>> Dear typologists,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (Apologies to those who have already seen this query through
>>>> LinguistList!)
>>>>
>>>> I'm looking for corresponding expressions (in any language) to the
>>>> approximative numeral phrases in the examples below – conventionalized
>>>> numeral expressions which typically express larger, approximate numeric
>>>> quantities and encode some kind of emotive function.
>>>> I'm interested in the composition and value of these numerals, as well
>>>> as their emphatic and emotive functions – if there are other expressions in
>>>> the numeral domain in your language(s) that carry a similar illocutionary
>>>> force, I would love to hear about them as well!
>>>>
>>>> Swedish [swe]: (from Bloggmix 2013, accessed through
>>>> http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp)
>>>> Det finns nämligen femtioelva sorters myror.
>>>> 'There are actually many types of ants' (lit. 'There are actually
>>>> fifty-eleven types of ants')
>>>>
>>>> French [fra]: (Lavric 2010, https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008)
>>>> Il n’y a pas trente-six façons de voir la chose.
>>>> 'There aren't very many ways of seeing the thing' (lit. 'There aren't
>>>> thirty-six ways of seeing the thing')
>>>>
>>>> Danish [dan]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through
>>>> http://opus.nlpl.eu)
>>>> Han fortalte mig 117 gange, at han ikke gjorde hende noget.
>>>> 'He told me a thousand times that he didn't do anything to her' (lit.
>>>> 'He told me 117 times that he didn't do anything to her')
>>>>
>>>> English [eng]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through
>>>> http://opus.nlpl.eu)
>>>> For the umpteenth time, we are not getting a dog.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much in advance for any tips, examples or comments!
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Amanda Kann
>>>>
>>>> *____________________________________*
>>>>
>>>> *Amanda Kann*
>>>>
>>>> Institutionen för lingvistik | *Department of **Linguistics*
>>>>
>>>> *Stockholms universitet | Stockholm University*
>>>> 106 91 Stockholm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se> <amanda.kann at su.se<mailto:amanda.kann at su.se>>*
>>>> www.ling.su.se<http://www.ling.su.se>
>>>>
>>>> Personuppgiftsbehandling vid Stockholms universitet
>>>> <https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter>
>>>> *____________________________________*
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