[Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples

Spike Gildea spike at uoregon.edu
Tue Mar 22 15:19:35 UTC 2022


Two quick thoughts provoked by this interesting discussion:


  1.  With the modern ability to record, transcribe, and translate natural speech, modern linguists should be well beyond the world where we make up sentences for speakers to translate and then use such sentences to construct a grammar of the language. Much of the weirdness of linguists creating falsely violent images of a speech community will go away when the examples are selected from narratives or conversations. If fully natural speech contains excessive complexity (e.g., too many discourse particles), then naturally-occurring sentences can be simplified to make more digestible examples. In my own corpora of Cariban languages, ‘hit’ is relatively rare (although beautifully illustrated in the fables), ‘kill’ is extremely common, ‘break’, ‘cut’, ‘clear (a field)’, ‘plant’ and ‘harvest’ are quite common, and ‘hug’ and ‘kiss’ are vanishingly rare.
  2.  As laid out in Fillmore (1970) the verb ‘hit’ is actually not a prototypical transitive verb with an affected patient, it is a prototypical contact-object verb whose direct object may or may not be affected by the contact. For example, if I hit a stone or Superman, my hand will surely be more affected than the object — the fact that humans are often affected when hit by other humans is arguably not a part of the denotation of ‘hit’. This is also reflected in the typological pattern that the second argument of contact-object verbs is marked not as a patient, but a location (e.g. Portuguese bater em ‘hit LOC’). In English, a construction reminiscent of a light verb using give occurs with contact-object verbs, e.g. give X a kiss, hug, punch in the nose, etc. but not patient-object verbs *give X a kill, break, plant, etc.

Spike

Fillmore, Charles. 1970. The grammar of hitting and breaking. in R. Jacobs and P. Rosenbaum, eds., Readings in English Transformational Grammar, pp. 120-133.  Waltham, MA, and London: Ginn.

From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Ilana Mushin <i.mushin at uq.edu.au>
Date: Monday, March 21, 2022 at 10:47 PM
To: David Nash <david.nash at anu.edu.au>, lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
Hi David. I was thinking more about what descriptive linguists do rather than what typologists do, although the two are quite symbiotic. The design space of language that canonical typology works within is about ‘theoretical spaces of possibilities’. I guess I’m thinking about what this might look like if we moved away from theoretical spaces that derive from notional ideas of grammar derived from the classical (Western) grammatical tradition, but rather are built from the bottom up on the basis of what people talk about when they talk. There are various approaches to grammar trying to reconceptualise what grammar looks like outside of our familiar architectures borne from the intellectual traditions that most of us in the European language-speaking world were raised in (Randy LaPolla comes to mind). Technology just gets better and better for us in this respect, making it easier to work with ordinary conversation (which is the home of most language use), and I’m aware of empirical corpus based approaches to language description which enable better generalisations over grammar, founded on large numbers of recordings of ordinary talk.

However the descriptive data that feeds into typological claims are based on data sets of variable quality, which I think obscures things like, for example, the importance of transitive clauses with two nominal arguments in the grand scheme of things. There’s no quick fix here, I think.

I realise this takes us a long way from the original point, which was about using violent sentences in grammars. But focusing on what people talk the most about (which may vary), without feeling constrained to find the most transitive construction possible, might be a good start.

Ilana

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From: David Nash <david.nash at anu.edu.au>
Date: Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 12:57 pm
To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Cc: Ilana Mushin <i.mushin at uq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
A short answer Ilana would be: 'Canonical Typology' https://www.smg.surrey.ac.uk/approaches/canonical-typology/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.smg.surrey.ac.uk/approaches/canonical-typology/__;!!C5qS4YX3!WGdWA01L237F5F0a2bceOL2iYmuFKQ3uYJNQdyeitmsD4_5y4bRoTl4mLfZUa5se$>
With pedagogical implications.

Yes, a great discussion topic; and I think Daniel Ross's post in particular has much food for thought!
David


On 22/3/2022 13:11, Ilana Mushin wrote:
Great discussion topic! I’m intrigued by the focus on finding the best examples of transitive constructions, usually with two nominal arguments. These are hard to find ‘in the wild’, as clauses in everyday talk tends to involve intransitive (or lesser transitive) constructions with at least one zero or pronominal argument (DuBois’ preferred argument structure). To what purpose should we be trying to find the extreme ends of what is possible grammatically, if this is not something that speakers themselves appear to be concerned with in their daily uses of language (which is where grammaticalization takes place)?

Ilana

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Professor of Linguistics
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From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Felicity Meakins <f.meakins at uq.edu.au><mailto:f.meakins at uq.edu.au>
Date: Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 11:36 am
To: Spreng, Bettina <bettina.spreng at usask.ca><mailto:bettina.spreng at usask.ca>, JOO, Ian [Student] <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk><mailto:ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>, lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
Yes although I think the Hopper and Thomason argument would be about the relative animacy of the A and O roles

From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of "Spreng, Bettina" <bettina.spreng at usask.ca><mailto:bettina.spreng at usask.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 10:51 am
To: "JOO, Ian [Student]" <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk><mailto:ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>, "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples

I think it’s definitely worth considering. Prototypically transitive verbs can be used quite differently.
Hit a ball, a tree, anything that maybe isn’t a woman?

Chop wood, cut bread, kiss a woman?

Some violent words can be used in the hunting context. In Inuit languages, we often use
Killing or shooting a polar bear. There is nothing problematic about that.

So often, I change genders in examples because they are so stereotyical. So, this goes beyond the indigenous stereotypes but stereotypes in general.

John kissed Mary.
Mary likes John.
John gives Mary a book.

With females being receivers, or receptacles, subjects of psych verbs, etc.

It goes beyond the indigenous context but that is a particularly sensitive one.

Once you pay attention, it’s quite blatant.


Dr. Bettina Spreng
Assistant Professor, Department of Linguistics
College of Arts & Sciences | University of Saskatchewan
P: (306) 966-1440
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From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> On Behalf Of JOO, Ian [Student]
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 6:05 PM
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Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples

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Is “hug” and “carry” as transtive as “hit”, though?
According to Hopper and Thompson (1980), one of the factors of transitivity is the affectedness of the patient.
Hugging or carrying someone does not affect them as much as hitting does.
Also “hug” is not so basic a word as “hit” is, which is in the Swadesh List or the Leipzig-Jakarta List.
Of course, hitting someone is a bad thing to do. But I don’t think linguists should avoid certain sentences because they depict something morally bad.

Regards,
Ian
On 22. Mar 2022, 00:54 +0100, Felicity Meakins <f.meakins at uq.edu.au<mailto:f.meakins at uq.edu.au>>, wrote:
Hi all,

We also comment on this in our field methods textbook (p. 129) and use a reflection from Torres Strait Islander linguist Al Harvey about this issue to illustrate how it can affect communities:


Meakins, F., Green, J., & Turpin, M. (2018). Understanding linguistic fieldwork. London: Routledge.
“One of the problems with publishing some of the sentences made up by linguists is that they become instantiations of culture and may perpetuate negative stereotypes about often already marginalised people. For example, grammars are full of sen- tences exemplifying transitivity using verbs that denote violence. ‘Hit’ is a classic transitive verb, but so is ‘hug’ or ‘carry’. When you construct sentences for elicita- tion, avoid topics that refer to violence, sex, alcohol, drugs (including smoking), child abuse or neglect, as these may upset people down the track. Also bear in mind that descendants of the speakers may read the grammar in years to come, or may be an audience member in a presentation using data you collected. Imagine that you are trying to re-construct your language and the only verb in the corpus is ‘hit’!
Perpetuating negative stereotypes of communities – Al Harvey

My name is Al Harvey, I am of Saibai Island descent and am currently work- ing on a project to preserve, document and protect the Top Western Torres Strait Island dialect of Kalaw Kawaw Ya (KKY).

Today KKY, like many other Australian Indigenous languages, is endan- gered. The loss of languages is more than just the loss of spoken word. It has always been explained to me that languages are a reflection of a peo- ple’s soul and way of living in the world. Speakers and descendants of a language have a role to play in the preservation and maintenance of that language but so too do people who work with those languages, including linguists. It’s important that linguists are cognisant of the role they play in acting as a facilitator in the preservation of languages. Linguists also need to be aware that language data gathered is presented in a way that reflects the good faith in which it was given.

I was at a linguistics workshop recently where the presenters offered sen- tences from an Aboriginal language. One of the sentences presented in the targeted language translated into English as ‘The man hit the woman’. For the purpose of the exercise it seemed to me to be an unnecessary display of a negative stereotype in a forum of predominately non-Indigenous linguists.

Thinking of language data beyond something to be scientifically analysed and being cognisant that the language you’re working with comes from the soul of a people would surely go some way to avoiding such unnecessary representations.”
Regards, Felicity

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From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of Hagay Schurr <hschurr at gradcenter.cuny.edu<mailto:hschurr at gradcenter.cuny.edu>>
Date: Saturday, 19 March 2022 at 4:19 am
To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>" <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples


Dear Sebastian,



I'm only aware of the debate around LSA guidelines in the early 2000's, including, among others, Postal's (2003, 187) reply  :



"it is arbitrary and discriminatory to try policing them only with respect to one or more favored victim groups, the policing code is necessarily incompatible with the principle of free speech, and, finally, it is in any event not possible to actually codify usage conditions that genuinely pick out all and only the offensive. Given all this, codes like the LSA guidelines are in part harmful and in part useless." (Postal 2003, 187).

Postal's paper will lead you to some relevant publications that defends policing to some extent.

Best,
Hagay

Postal, P. M. (2003). Policing the content of linguistic examples. Language, 79(1), 182-188.
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Today's Topics:

   1. Reference for violence (hit,      kill) in articles in linguistics
      needed (Sebastian Nordhoff)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 12:51:15 +0100
From: Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de<mailto:sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>>
To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>"
        <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: [Lingtyp] Reference for violence (hit, kill) in articles in
        linguistics needed
Message-ID: <7a23c27d-4cc4-e57b-37c6-ac5570a6d144 at glottotopia.de<mailto:7a23c27d-4cc4-e57b-37c6-ac5570a6d144 at glottotopia.de>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Dear all,
I have occasionally been part in discussions where the frequent use of
violent concepts such as 'hit' or 'kill' in linguistics is mentioned and
sometimes criticized.

I believe there is some research article providing empirical evidence
for  linguistic articles being unnecessarily "violent", but I am unable
to locate it. Could the list members help me?

Best wishes
Sebastian

PS: I am aware that 'hit' and 'kill' have a number of semantic
properties which make them very suitable for a number of research questions.



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