[Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
Martin Haspelmath
martin_haspelmath at eva.mpg.de
Tue Mar 22 16:26:35 UTC 2022
Spike Gildea is quite right that 'hit' is not a "prototypical"
transitive verb in that it does not denote a change of state (cf. Lazard
2002: 152, where this is spelled out very clearly). However, in our
study of valency patterns across 36 languages (Valency Patterns Leipzig,
valpal.info), we did not find substantial evidence for different coding
patterns with 'hit' compared to 'break', 'beat' or 'kill' (Hartmann et
al. 2013; Haspelmath 2015).
One striking finding of our project was that "transitivity" (as defined
by Lazard) actually extends further in most languages than would have
been expected on the basis of the earlier work by Tsunoda, Malchukov and
others – it seems that the relatively restricted use of the transitive
pattern is (somewhat) characteristic of Eurasian languages.
I also agree with Spike that one needs "digestible examples" – as a
regular grammar reader, I often wish that grammar authors would adopt a
more "didactic" or "pedagogical" approach (as suggested by Sebastian).
Naturally occurring examples are great, but for the grammar reader, they
are often hard to make sense of.
I would go further, though, in pointing out that there need not be
anything wrong with unnatural examples if we are confident of the
analysis. One thing that is really special about Human Language is that
we can talk about anything, including unlikely or even impossible
situations. We are used to inflectional paradigms that contain very rare
forms (e.g. Ancient Greek Pluperfect Middle ἐπέπραξο 'thou hadst done
for thyself'), and we may think of syntactic examples as *paradigmatic*
in a similar way. (In fact, I have argued that the idea of *completing
the syntactic paradigms* was the major positive innovation of
linguistics in the 1960s:
https://inference-review.com/letter/reassessing-the-legacy-of-aspects).
Best,
Martin
***********************
References
Hartmann, Iren & Haspelmath, Martin & Taylor, Bradley (eds.). 2013. /The
Valency Patterns Leipzig online database/. Leipzig: Max Planck Institute
for Evolutionary Anthropology. (https://valpal.info/) (Accessed March
16, 2022.)
Haspelmath, Martin. 2015. Transitivity prominence. In Malchukov, Andrej
L. & Comrie, Bernard (eds.), /Valency classes in the world’s languages:
A comparative handbook (Volume 1)/, 131–147. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton.
(https://zenodo.org/deposit/4551122)
Lazard, Gilbert. 2002. Transitivity revisited as an example of a more
strict approach in typological research. /Folia Linguistica/ 36(3–4).
141–190. (doi:10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141
<https://doi.org/10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141>)
Am 22.03.22 um 16:19 schrieb Spike Gildea:
>
> Two quick thoughts provoked by this interesting discussion:
>
> 1. With the modern ability to record, transcribe, and translate
> natural speech, modern linguists should be well beyond the world
> where we make up sentences for speakers to translate and then use
> such sentences to construct a grammar of the language. Much of the
> weirdness of linguists creating falsely violent images of a speech
> community will go away when the examples are selected from
> narratives or conversations. If fully natural speech contains
> excessive complexity (e.g., too many discourse particles), then
> naturally-occurring sentences can be simplified to make more
> digestible examples. In my own corpora of Cariban languages, ‘hit’
> is relatively rare (although beautifully illustrated in the
> fables), ‘kill’ is extremely common, ‘break’, ‘cut’, ‘clear (a
> field)’, ‘plant’ and ‘harvest’ are quite common, and ‘hug’ and
> ‘kiss’ are vanishingly rare.
> 2. As laid out in Fillmore (1970) the verb ‘hit’ is actually not a
> prototypical transitive verb with an affected patient, it is a
> prototypical contact-object verb whose direct object may or may
> not be affected by the contact. For example, if I hit a stone or
> Superman, my hand will surely be more affected than the object —
> the fact that humans are often affected when hit by other humans
> is arguably not a part of the denotation of ‘hit’. This is also
> reflected in the typological pattern that the second argument of
> contact-object verbs is marked not as a patient, but a location
> (e.g. Portuguese /bater em/ ‘hit LOC’). In English, a construction
> reminiscent of a light verb using /give/ occurs with
> contact-object verbs, e.g. /give X a kiss, hug, punch in the
> nose/, etc. but not patient-object verbs */give X a kill, break,
> plant/, etc.
>
> Spike
>
> Fillmore, Charles. 1970. The grammar of /hitting/ and /breaking/. in
> R. Jacobs and P. Rosenbaum, eds., /Readings in English
> Transformational Grammar/, pp. 120-133. Waltham, MA, and London: Ginn.
>
> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf
> of Ilana Mushin <i.mushin at uq.edu.au>
> *Date: *Monday, March 21, 2022 at 10:47 PM
> *To: *David Nash <david.nash at anu.edu.au>,
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
>
> Hi David. I was thinking more about what descriptive linguists do
> rather than what typologists do, although the two are quite symbiotic.
> The design space of language that canonical typology works within is
> about ‘theoretical spaces of possibilities’. I guess I’m thinking
> about what this might look like if we moved away from theoretical
> spaces that derive from notional ideas of grammar derived from the
> classical (Western) grammatical tradition, but rather are built from
> the bottom up on the basis of what people talk about when they talk.
> There are various approaches to grammar trying to reconceptualise what
> grammar looks like outside of our familiar architectures borne from
> the intellectual traditions that most of us in the European
> language-speaking world were raised in (Randy LaPolla comes to mind).
> Technology just gets better and better for us in this respect, making
> it easier to work with ordinary conversation (which is the home of
> most language use), and I’m aware of empirical corpus based approaches
> to language description which enable better generalisations over
> grammar, founded on large numbers of recordings of ordinary talk.
>
> However the descriptive data that feeds into typological claims are
> based on data sets of variable quality, which I think obscures things
> like, for example, the importance of transitive clauses with two
> nominal arguments in the grand scheme of things. There’s no quick fix
> here, I think.
>
> I realise this takes us a long way from the original point, which was
> about using violent sentences in grammars. But focusing on what people
> talk the most about (which may vary), without feeling constrained to
> find the most transitive construction possible, might be a good start.
>
> Ilana
>
> --
>
> Ilana Mushin
>
> Professor of Linguistics
>
> Deputy Head of School
>
> President, Australian Linguistic Society
>
> Co-Editor, /Interactional
> Linguistics/ (https://benjamins.com/catalog/il
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/benjamins.com/catalog/il__;!!NVzLfOphnbDXSw!XIVG-R7E5WzAx0G3QYgTrakJEOa6L2OdXXKg1Lg7jusPiNeWF9btUHYhJlpCXsRdPeQ$>)
>
>
> School of Languages and Cultures
>
> University of Queensland
>
> St Lucia, QLD 4072.
>
> Ph: (07) 3365 6810
>
> CRICOS Provider No: 00025B
>
> *I acknowledge the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on whose land I live and
> work. Their sovereignty was never ceded.*
>
> *From: *David Nash <david.nash at anu.edu.au>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 12:57 pm
> *To: *lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Cc: *Ilana Mushin <i.mushin at uq.edu.au>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
>
> A short answer Ilana would be: 'Canonical Typology'
> https://www.smg.surrey.ac.uk/approaches/canonical-typology/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.smg.surrey.ac.uk/approaches/canonical-typology/__;!!C5qS4YX3!WGdWA01L237F5F0a2bceOL2iYmuFKQ3uYJNQdyeitmsD4_5y4bRoTl4mLfZUa5se$>
> With pedagogical implications.
>
> Yes, a great discussion topic; and I think Daniel Ross's post in
> particular has much food for thought!
> David
>
>
> On 22/3/2022 13:11, Ilana Mushin wrote:
>
> Great discussion topic! I’m intrigued by the focus on finding the
> best examples of transitive constructions, usually with two
> nominal arguments. These are hard to find ‘in the wild’, as
> clauses in everyday talk tends to involve intransitive (or lesser
> transitive) constructions with at least one zero or pronominal
> argument (DuBois’ preferred argument structure). To what purpose
> should we be trying to find the extreme ends of what is possible
> grammatically, if this is not something that speakers themselves
> appear to be concerned with in their daily uses of language (which
> is where grammaticalization takes place)?
>
> Ilana
>
> --
>
> Ilana Mushin
>
> Professor of Linguistics
>
> Deputy Head of School
>
> President, Australian Linguistic Society
>
> /var/folders/lv/m77kqy0n4x1_rcd3pk0j2n900000gq/T/com.microsoft.Outlook/WebArchiveCopyPasteTempFiles/il.pb.pngCo-Editor,
> /Interactional Linguistics/ (https://benjamins.com/catalog/il
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>
>
> School of Languages and Cultures
>
> University of Queensland
>
> St Lucia, QLD 4072.
>
> Ph: (07) 3365 6810
>
> CRICOS Provider No: 00025B
>
> *I acknowledge the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on whose land I live
> and work. Their sovereignty was never ceded.*
>
> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>on behalf of
> Felicity Meakins <f.meakins at uq.edu.au> <mailto:f.meakins at uq.edu.au>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 11:36 am
> *To: *Spreng, Bettina <bettina.spreng at usask.ca>
> <mailto:bettina.spreng at usask.ca>, JOO, Ian [Student]
> <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk> <mailto:ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>,
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
>
> Yes although I think the Hopper and Thomason argument would be
> about the relative animacy of the A and O roles
>
> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>on behalf of
> "Spreng, Bettina" <bettina.spreng at usask.ca>
> <mailto:bettina.spreng at usask.ca>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 10:51 am
> *To: *"JOO, Ian [Student]" <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>
> <mailto:ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>,
> "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
>
> I think it’s definitely worth considering. Prototypically
> transitive verbs can be used quite differently.
>
> Hit a ball, a tree, anything that maybe isn’t a woman?
>
> Chop wood, cut bread, kiss a woman?
>
> Some violent words can be used in the hunting context. In Inuit
> languages, we often use
>
> Killing or shooting a polar bear. There is nothing problematic
> about that.
>
> So often, I change genders in examples because they are so
> stereotyical. So, this goes beyond the indigenous stereotypes but
> stereotypes in general.
>
> John kissed Mary.
>
> Mary likes John.
>
> John gives Mary a book.
>
> With females being receivers, or receptacles, subjects of psych
> verbs, etc.
>
> It goes beyond the indigenous context but that is a particularly
> sensitive one.
>
> Once you pay attention, it’s quite blatant.
>
> *Dr. Bettina Spreng*
>
> Assistant Professor, Department of Linguistics
>
> College of Arts & Sciences | University of Saskatchewan
>
> P: (306) 966-1440
>
> Arts Building, Room 911
>
> 9 Campus Drive, Saskatoon, SK S7N 5A5
>
> *From:*Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>*On Behalf Of
> *JOO, Ian [Student]
> *Sent:* Monday, March 21, 2022 6:05 PM
> *To:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
>
> CAUTION:External to USask. Verify sender and use caution with
> links and attachments. Forward suspicious emails to
> phishing at usask.ca <mailto:phishing at usask.ca>
>
> Is “hug” and “carry” as transtive as “hit”, though?
> According to Hopper and Thompson (1980), one of the factors of
> transitivity is the affectedness of the patient.
> Hugging or carrying someone does not affect them as much as
> hitting does.
> Also “hug” is not so basic a word as “hit” is, which is in the
> Swadesh List or the Leipzig-Jakarta List.
> Of course, hitting someone is a bad thing to do. But I don’t think
> linguists should avoid certain sentences because they depict
> something morally bad.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian
>
> On 22. Mar 2022, 00:54 +0100, Felicity Meakins
> <f.meakins at uq.edu.au <mailto:f.meakins at uq.edu.au>>, wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> We also comment on this in our field methods textbook (p. 129)
> and use a reflection from Torres Strait Islander linguist Al
> Harvey about this issue to illustrate how it can affect
> communities:
>
> Meakins, F., Green, J., & Turpin, M. (2018). /Understanding
> linguistic fieldwork/. London: Routledge.
>
> “One of the problems with publishing some of the sentences
> made up by linguists is that they become instantiations of
> culture and may perpetuate negative stereotypes about often
> already marginalised people. For example, grammars are full of
> sen- tences exemplifying transitivity using verbs that denote
> violence. ‘Hit’ is a classic transitive verb, but so is ‘hug’
> or ‘carry’. When you construct sentences for elicita- tion,
> avoid topics that refer to violence, sex, alcohol, drugs
> (including smoking), child abuse or neglect, as these may
> upset people down the track. Also bear in mind that
> descendants of the speakers may read the grammar in years to
> come, or may be an audience member in a presentation using
> data you collected. Imagine that you are trying to
> re-construct your language and the only verb in the corpus is
> ‘hit’!
>
> *Perpetuating negative stereotypes of communities – Al Harvey*
>
> My name is Al Harvey, I am of Saibai Island descent and am
> currently work- ing on a project to preserve, document and
> protect the Top Western Torres Strait Island dialect of Kalaw
> Kawaw Ya (KKY).
>
> Today KKY, like many other Australian Indigenous languages, is
> endan- gered. The loss of languages is more than just the loss
> of spoken word. It has always been explained to me that
> languages are a reflection of a peo- ple’s soul and way of
> living in the world. Speakers and descendants of a language
> have a role to play in the preservation and maintenance of
> that language but so too do people who work with those
> languages, including linguists. It’s important that linguists
> are cognisant of the role they play in acting as a facilitator
> in the preservation of languages. Linguists also need to be
> aware that language data gathered is presented in a way that
> reflects the good faith in which it was given.
>
> I was at a linguistics workshop recently where the presenters
> offered sen- tences from an Aboriginal language. One of the
> sentences presented in the targeted language translated into
> English as ‘The man hit the woman’. For the purpose of the
> exercise it seemed to me to be an unnecessary display of a
> negative stereotype in a forum of predominately non-Indigenous
> linguists.
>
> Thinking of language data beyond something to be
> scientifically analysed and being cognisant that the language
> you’re working with comes from the soul of a people would
> surely go some way to avoiding such unnecessary representations.”
>
> Regards, Felicity
>
> _________________________________________
>
> Prof Felicity Meakins FASSA | Australian Research Council
> (ARC) Future Fellow |
>
> ARC ! Centre of Excellence for the Dynamics of Language
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> *From:*Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf
> of Hagay Schurr <hschurr at gradcenter.cuny.edu
> <mailto:hschurr at gradcenter.cuny.edu>>
> *Date:* Saturday, 19 March 2022 at 4:19 am
> *To:* "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>"
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> *Subject:* [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
>
> Dear Sebastian,
>
> I'm only aware of the debate around LSA guidelines in the
> early 2000's, including, among others, Postal's (2003, 187)
> reply :
>
> "it is arbitrary and discriminatory to try policing them only
> with respect to one or more favored victim groups, the
> policing code is necessarily incompatible with the principle
> of free speech, and, finally, it is in any event not possible
> to actually codify usage conditions that genuinely pick out
> all and only the offensive. Given all this, codes like the LSA
> guidelines are in part harmful and in part useless." (Postal
> 2003, 187).
>
> Postal's paper will lead you to some relevant publications
> that defends policing to some extent.
>
> Best,
>
> Hagay
>
> Postal, P. M. (2003). Policing the content of linguistic
> examples. /Language/, /79/(1), 182-188.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf
> of lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org><lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> *Sent:* Friday, March 18, 2022 12:00 PM
> *To:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL]Lingtyp Digest, Vol 90, Issue 21
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Reference for violence (hit, kill) in articles in
> linguistics
> needed (Sebastian Nordhoff)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 12:51:15 +0100
> From: Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de
> <mailto:sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>>
> To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>"
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> Subject: [Lingtyp] Reference for violence (hit, kill) in
> articles in
> linguistics needed
> Message-ID:
> <7a23c27d-4cc4-e57b-37c6-ac5570a6d144 at glottotopia.de
> <mailto:7a23c27d-4cc4-e57b-37c6-ac5570a6d144 at glottotopia.de>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Dear all,
> I have occasionally been part in discussions where the
> frequent use of
> violent concepts such as 'hit' or 'kill' in linguistics is
> mentioned and
> sometimes criticized.
>
> I believe there is some research article providing empirical
> evidence
> for linguistic articles being unnecessarily "violent", but I
> am unable
> to locate it. Could the list members help me?
>
> Best wishes
> Sebastian
>
> PS: I am aware that 'hit' and 'kill' have a number of semantic
> properties which make them very suitable for a number of
> research questions.
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 90, Issue 21
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