[Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
Jess Tauber
tetrahedralpt at gmail.com
Tue Mar 22 17:32:29 UTC 2022
While there are distinct verbs for hit (sg) and hit (pl) in Yahgan (genetic
isolate from Tierra del Fuego, whose last fluent speaker passed away a few
weeks ago), the manner-of-action bipartite verb prefix ak-u:- (from 'hit
(sg.) aki + permissive-causative u:- (colon marks tenseness of the vowel
preceding it) is extremely common, with very many accompanying main verbs
and also following pathway/position/posture suffixes. Yahgan is the only
language I'm aware of that displays the full 'bipartite' habit, though
unlike many western North American languages with it, there are no
limitations on the numbers of roots that can be drawn into the stem other
than short-term memory. Some concepts are normally only expressed through
such bipartite constructions, such as 'kill', which is aku:pvna (v schwa),
literally 'strike-(allow-to)-die', or 'strike dead'.
Jess Tauber
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On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 12:28 PM Martin Haspelmath <
martin_haspelmath at eva.mpg.de> wrote:
> Spike Gildea is quite right that 'hit' is not a "prototypical" transitive
> verb in that it does not denote a change of state (cf. Lazard 2002: 152,
> where this is spelled out very clearly). However, in our study of valency
> patterns across 36 languages (Valency Patterns Leipzig, valpal.info), we
> did not find substantial evidence for different coding patterns with 'hit'
> compared to 'break', 'beat' or 'kill' (Hartmann et al. 2013; Haspelmath
> 2015).
>
> One striking finding of our project was that "transitivity" (as defined by
> Lazard) actually extends further in most languages than would have been
> expected on the basis of the earlier work by Tsunoda, Malchukov and others
> – it seems that the relatively restricted use of the transitive pattern is
> (somewhat) characteristic of Eurasian languages.
>
> I also agree with Spike that one needs "digestible examples" – as a
> regular grammar reader, I often wish that grammar authors would adopt a
> more "didactic" or "pedagogical" approach (as suggested by Sebastian).
> Naturally occurring examples are great, but for the grammar reader, they
> are often hard to make sense of.
>
> I would go further, though, in pointing out that there need not be
> anything wrong with unnatural examples if we are confident of the analysis.
> One thing that is really special about Human Language is that we can talk
> about anything, including unlikely or even impossible situations. We are
> used to inflectional paradigms that contain very rare forms (e.g. Ancient
> Greek Pluperfect Middle ἐπέπραξο 'thou hadst done for thyself'), and we may
> think of syntactic examples as *paradigmatic* in a similar way. (In fact, I
> have argued that the idea of *completing the syntactic paradigms* was the
> major positive innovation of linguistics in the 1960s:
> https://inference-review.com/letter/reassessing-the-legacy-of-aspects).
>
> Best,
> Martin
>
> ***********************
>
> References
>
> Hartmann, Iren & Haspelmath, Martin & Taylor, Bradley (eds.). 2013. *The
> Valency Patterns Leipzig online database*. Leipzig: Max Planck Institute
> for Evolutionary Anthropology. (https://valpal.info/) (Accessed March 16,
> 2022.)
> Haspelmath, Martin. 2015. Transitivity prominence. In Malchukov, Andrej L.
> & Comrie, Bernard (eds.), *Valency classes in the world’s languages: A
> comparative handbook (Volume 1)*, 131–147. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton. (
> https://zenodo.org/deposit/4551122)
> Lazard, Gilbert. 2002. Transitivity revisited as an example of a more
> strict approach in typological research. *Folia Linguistica* 36(3–4).
> 141–190. (doi:10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141
> <https://doi.org/10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141>)
>
>
>
> Am 22.03.22 um 16:19 schrieb Spike Gildea:
>
> Two quick thoughts provoked by this interesting discussion:
>
>
>
> 1. With the modern ability to record, transcribe, and translate
> natural speech, modern linguists should be well beyond the world where we
> make up sentences for speakers to translate and then use such sentences to
> construct a grammar of the language. Much of the weirdness of linguists
> creating falsely violent images of a speech community will go away when the
> examples are selected from narratives or conversations. If fully natural
> speech contains excessive complexity (e.g., too many discourse particles),
> then naturally-occurring sentences can be simplified to make more
> digestible examples. In my own corpora of Cariban languages, ‘hit’ is
> relatively rare (although beautifully illustrated in the fables), ‘kill’ is
> extremely common, ‘break’, ‘cut’, ‘clear (a field)’, ‘plant’ and ‘harvest’
> are quite common, and ‘hug’ and ‘kiss’ are vanishingly rare.
> 2. As laid out in Fillmore (1970) the verb ‘hit’ is actually not a
> prototypical transitive verb with an affected patient, it is a prototypical
> contact-object verb whose direct object may or may not be affected by the
> contact. For example, if I hit a stone or Superman, my hand will surely be
> more affected than the object — the fact that humans are often affected
> when hit by other humans is arguably not a part of the denotation of ‘hit’.
> This is also reflected in the typological pattern that the second argument
> of contact-object verbs is marked not as a patient, but a location (e.g.
> Portuguese *bater em* ‘hit LOC’). In English, a construction
> reminiscent of a light verb using *give* occurs with contact-object
> verbs, e.g. *give X a kiss, hug, punch in the nose*, etc. but not
> patient-object verbs **give X a kill, break, plant*, etc.
>
>
>
> Spike
>
>
>
> Fillmore, Charles. 1970. The grammar of *hitting* and *breaking*. in R.
> Jacobs and P. Rosenbaum, eds., *Readings in English Transformational
> Grammar*, pp. 120-133. Waltham, MA, and London: Ginn.
>
>
>
> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Ilana Mushin
> <i.mushin at uq.edu.au> <i.mushin at uq.edu.au>
> *Date: *Monday, March 21, 2022 at 10:47 PM
> *To: *David Nash <david.nash at anu.edu.au> <david.nash at anu.edu.au>,
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
>
> Hi David. I was thinking more about what descriptive linguists do rather
> than what typologists do, although the two are quite symbiotic. The design
> space of language that canonical typology works within is about
> ‘theoretical spaces of possibilities’. I guess I’m thinking about what this
> might look like if we moved away from theoretical spaces that derive from
> notional ideas of grammar derived from the classical (Western) grammatical
> tradition, but rather are built from the bottom up on the basis of what
> people talk about when they talk. There are various approaches to grammar
> trying to reconceptualise what grammar looks like outside of our familiar
> architectures borne from the intellectual traditions that most of us in the
> European language-speaking world were raised in (Randy LaPolla comes to
> mind). Technology just gets better and better for us in this respect,
> making it easier to work with ordinary conversation (which is the home of
> most language use), and I’m aware of empirical corpus based approaches to
> language description which enable better generalisations over grammar,
> founded on large numbers of recordings of ordinary talk.
>
>
>
> However the descriptive data that feeds into typological claims are based
> on data sets of variable quality, which I think obscures things like, for
> example, the importance of transitive clauses with two nominal arguments in
> the grand scheme of things. There’s no quick fix here, I think.
>
>
>
> I realise this takes us a long way from the original point, which was
> about using violent sentences in grammars. But focusing on what people talk
> the most about (which may vary), without feeling constrained to find the
> most transitive construction possible, might be a good start.
>
>
>
> Ilana
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ilana Mushin
>
> Professor of Linguistics
>
> Deputy Head of School
>
> President, Australian Linguistic Society
>
>
>
> Co-Editor, *Interactional Linguistics* (https://benjamins.com/catalog/il
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/benjamins.com/catalog/il__;!!NVzLfOphnbDXSw!XIVG-R7E5WzAx0G3QYgTrakJEOa6L2OdXXKg1Lg7jusPiNeWF9btUHYhJlpCXsRdPeQ$>
> )
>
>
>
> School of Languages and Cultures
>
> University of Queensland
>
> St Lucia, QLD 4072.
>
> Ph: (07) 3365 6810
>
>
>
> CRICOS Provider No: 00025B
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>
>
> *I acknowledge the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on whose land I live and
> work. Their sovereignty was never ceded.*
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *David Nash <david.nash at anu.edu.au> <david.nash at anu.edu.au>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 12:57 pm
> *To: *lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Cc: *Ilana Mushin <i.mushin at uq.edu.au> <i.mushin at uq.edu.au>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
>
> A short answer Ilana would be: 'Canonical Typology'
> https://www.smg.surrey.ac.uk/approaches/canonical-typology/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.smg.surrey.ac.uk/approaches/canonical-typology/__;!!C5qS4YX3!WGdWA01L237F5F0a2bceOL2iYmuFKQ3uYJNQdyeitmsD4_5y4bRoTl4mLfZUa5se$>
> With pedagogical implications.
>
> Yes, a great discussion topic; and I think Daniel Ross's post in
> particular has much food for thought!
> David
>
>
> On 22/3/2022 13:11, Ilana Mushin wrote:
>
> Great discussion topic! I’m intrigued by the focus on finding the best
> examples of transitive constructions, usually with two nominal arguments.
> These are hard to find ‘in the wild’, as clauses in everyday talk tends to
> involve intransitive (or lesser transitive) constructions with at least one
> zero or pronominal argument (DuBois’ preferred argument structure). To what
> purpose should we be trying to find the extreme ends of what is possible
> grammatically, if this is not something that speakers themselves appear to
> be concerned with in their daily uses of language (which is where
> grammaticalization takes place)?
>
>
>
> Ilana
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ilana Mushin
>
> Professor of Linguistics
>
> Deputy Head of School
>
> President, Australian Linguistic Society
>
>
>
> [image:
> /var/folders/lv/m77kqy0n4x1_rcd3pk0j2n900000gq/T/com.microsoft.Outlook/WebArchiveCopyPasteTempFiles/il.pb.png]
> Co-Editor, *Interactional Linguistics* (https://benjamins.com/catalog/il
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbenjamins.com*2Fcatalog*2Fil__*3B!!NVzLfOphnbDXSw!XIVG-R7E5WzAx0G3QYgTrakJEOa6L2OdXXKg1Lg7jusPiNeWF9btUHYhJlpCXsRdPeQ*24&data=04*7C01*7Cdavid.nash*40anu.edu.au*7C1a06b893bb4d41cd475f08da0ba96937*7Ce37d725cab5c46249ae5f0533e486437*7C0*7C0*7C637835120128376133*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000&sdata=Y8JkBii6UCeRoR3psdTbRkqX983miIprorq9SQ0QhOY*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!C5qS4YX3!WGdWA01L237F5F0a2bceOL2iYmuFKQ3uYJNQdyeitmsD4_5y4bRoTl4mLUXg3pbo$>
> )
>
>
>
> School of Languages and Cultures
>
> University of Queensland
>
> St Lucia, QLD 4072.
>
> Ph: (07) 3365 6810
>
>
>
> CRICOS Provider No: 00025B
>
>
>
> *I acknowledge the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on whose land I live and
> work. Their sovereignty was never ceded.*
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Felicity Meakins
> <f.meakins at uq.edu.au> <f.meakins at uq.edu.au>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 11:36 am
> *To: *Spreng, Bettina <bettina.spreng at usask.ca> <bettina.spreng at usask.ca>,
> JOO, Ian [Student] <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk> <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>,
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
>
> Yes although I think the Hopper and Thomason argument would be about the
> relative animacy of the A and O roles
>
>
>
> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of "Spreng,
> Bettina" <bettina.spreng at usask.ca> <bettina.spreng at usask.ca>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 10:51 am
> *To: *"JOO, Ian [Student]" <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>
> <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>, "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
>
>
>
> I think it’s definitely worth considering. Prototypically transitive verbs
> can be used quite differently.
>
> Hit a ball, a tree, anything that maybe isn’t a woman?
>
>
>
> Chop wood, cut bread, kiss a woman?
>
>
>
> Some violent words can be used in the hunting context. In Inuit languages,
> we often use
>
> Killing or shooting a polar bear. There is nothing problematic about that.
>
>
>
> So often, I change genders in examples because they are so stereotyical.
> So, this goes beyond the indigenous stereotypes but stereotypes in general.
>
>
>
> John kissed Mary.
>
> Mary likes John.
>
> John gives Mary a book.
>
>
>
> With females being receivers, or receptacles, subjects of psych verbs, etc.
>
>
>
> It goes beyond the indigenous context but that is a particularly sensitive
> one.
>
>
>
> Once you pay attention, it’s quite blatant.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Dr. Bettina Spreng*
>
> Assistant Professor, Department of Linguistics
>
> College of Arts & Sciences | University of Saskatchewan
>
> P: (306) 966-1440
>
> Arts Building, Room 911
>
> 9 Campus Drive, Saskatoon, SK S7N 5A5
>
>
>
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> *On Behalf Of *JOO, Ian
> [Student]
> *Sent:* Monday, March 21, 2022 6:05 PM
> *To:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
>
>
>
> CAUTION: External to USask. Verify sender and use caution with links and
> attachments. Forward suspicious emails to phishing at usask.ca
>
>
>
> Is “hug” and “carry” as transtive as “hit”, though?
> According to Hopper and Thompson (1980), one of the factors of
> transitivity is the affectedness of the patient.
> Hugging or carrying someone does not affect them as much as hitting does.
> Also “hug” is not so basic a word as “hit” is, which is in the Swadesh
> List or the Leipzig-Jakarta List.
> Of course, hitting someone is a bad thing to do. But I don’t think
> linguists should avoid certain sentences because they depict something
> morally bad.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian
>
> On 22. Mar 2022, 00:54 +0100, Felicity Meakins <f.meakins at uq.edu.au>,
> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> We also comment on this in our field methods textbook (p. 129) and use a
> reflection from Torres Strait Islander linguist Al Harvey about this issue
> to illustrate how it can affect communities:
>
>
>
> Meakins, F., Green, J., & Turpin, M. (2018). *Understanding linguistic
> fieldwork*. London: Routledge.
>
> “One of the problems with publishing some of the sentences made up by
> linguists is that they become instantiations of culture and may perpetuate
> negative stereotypes about often already marginalised people. For example,
> grammars are full of sen- tences exemplifying transitivity using verbs that
> denote violence. ‘Hit’ is a classic transitive verb, but so is ‘hug’ or
> ‘carry’. When you construct sentences for elicita- tion, avoid topics that
> refer to violence, sex, alcohol, drugs (including smoking), child abuse or
> neglect, as these may upset people down the track. Also bear in mind that
> descendants of the speakers may read the grammar in years to come, or may
> be an audience member in a presentation using data you collected. Imagine
> that you are trying to re-construct your language and the only verb in the
> corpus is ‘hit’!
>
> *Perpetuating negative stereotypes of communities – Al Harvey*
>
> My name is Al Harvey, I am of Saibai Island descent and am currently work-
> ing on a project to preserve, document and protect the Top Western Torres
> Strait Island dialect of Kalaw Kawaw Ya (KKY).
>
> Today KKY, like many other Australian Indigenous languages, is endan-
> gered. The loss of languages is more than just the loss of spoken word. It
> has always been explained to me that languages are a reflection of a peo-
> ple’s soul and way of living in the world. Speakers and descendants of a
> language have a role to play in the preservation and maintenance of that
> language but so too do people who work with those languages, including
> linguists. It’s important that linguists are cognisant of the role they
> play in acting as a facilitator in the preservation of languages. Linguists
> also need to be aware that language data gathered is presented in a way
> that reflects the good faith in which it was given.
>
> I was at a linguistics workshop recently where the presenters offered sen-
> tences from an Aboriginal language. One of the sentences presented in the
> targeted language translated into English as ‘The man hit the woman’. For
> the purpose of the exercise it seemed to me to be an unnecessary display of
> a negative stereotype in a forum of predominately non-Indigenous linguists.
>
> Thinking of language data beyond something to be scientifically analysed
> and being cognisant that the language you’re working with comes from the
> soul of a people would surely go some way to avoiding such unnecessary
> representations.”
>
> Regards, Felicity
>
>
>
> _________________________________________
>
> Prof Felicity Meakins FASSA | Australian Research Council (ARC) Future
> Fellow |
>
> ARC ! Centre of Excellence for the Dynamics of Language
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Fwww.dynamicsoflanguage.edu.au*2F&data=04*7C01*7Cdavid.nash*40anu.edu.au*7C1a06b893bb4d41cd475f08da0ba96937*7Ce37d725cab5c46249ae5f0533e486437*7C0*7C0*7C637835120128376133*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000&sdata=cdb3PS814od2eElD1ID58uuhLMkuQ2W*2BhsRz1Um86Gw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!C5qS4YX3!WGdWA01L237F5F0a2bceOL2iYmuFKQ3uYJNQdyeitmsD4_5y4bRoTl4mLaAOS83e$>
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> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> Hagay Schurr <hschurr at gradcenter.cuny.edu>
> *Date:* Saturday, 19 March 2022 at 4:19 am
> *To:* "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org" <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject:* [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic examples
>
>
>
> Dear Sebastian,
>
>
>
> I'm only aware of the debate around LSA guidelines in the early 2000's,
> including, among others, Postal's (2003, 187) reply :
>
>
>
> "it is arbitrary and discriminatory to try policing them only with respect
> to one or more favored victim groups, the policing code is necessarily
> incompatible with the principle of free speech, and, finally, it is in any
> event not possible to actually codify usage conditions that genuinely pick
> out all and only the offensive. Given all this, codes like the LSA
> guidelines are in part harmful and in part useless." (Postal 2003, 187).
>
>
>
> Postal's paper will lead you to some relevant publications that defends
> policing to some extent.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Hagay
>
>
>
> Postal, P. M. (2003). Policing the content of linguistic examples.
> *Language*, *79*(1), 182-188.
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org <
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> *Sent:* Friday, March 18, 2022 12:00 PM
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> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL]Lingtyp Digest, Vol 90, Issue 21
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Reference for violence (hit, kill) in articles in linguistics
> needed (Sebastian Nordhoff)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 12:51:15 +0100
> From: Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>
> To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: [Lingtyp] Reference for violence (hit, kill) in articles in
> linguistics needed
> Message-ID: <7a23c27d-4cc4-e57b-37c6-ac5570a6d144 at glottotopia.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Dear all,
> I have occasionally been part in discussions where the frequent use of
> violent concepts such as 'hit' or 'kill' in linguistics is mentioned and
> sometimes criticized.
>
> I believe there is some research article providing empirical evidence
> for linguistic articles being unnecessarily "violent", but I am unable
> to locate it. Could the list members help me?
>
> Best wishes
> Sebastian
>
> PS: I am aware that 'hit' and 'kill' have a number of semantic
> properties which make them very suitable for a number of research
> questions.
>
>
>
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> End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 90, Issue 21
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