[Lingtyp] Voiced aspirated vs. breathy voiced consonants

[Jesse P. Gates]

Great, thanks! Got it.

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:23 AM Ian Maddieson <ianm at berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Jesse,
>
>  /bʱ/ and /bʰ/ are simply notational variants, with /bʱ/ a more precise
> one, given that the airflow after the release is invariably voiced in [bʱ].
>
>  /b̤/, as long as this notation is being used for a segment in which the
> breathiness is aligned with the consonantal constriction (and not as an
> alternative
> notation for [bʱ]), represents a quite different phonetic entity with very
> different timing of the oral and laryngeal gestures.
>
> Ian
>
> On Mar 28, 2023, at 20:08, Jesse P. Gates <stauskad at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Ian,
>
> Thanks! So bʱ and bʰ are the same, but bʱ/bʰ are different from b̤? Or is
> it bʰ is different from bʱ and b̤? Or are all three different?
>
> Best wishes,
> Jesse
>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:00 AM Ian Maddieson <ianm at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>> Jesse,
>>
>> That was exactly the distinction I was talking about. Hindi has bʱ,
>> Shanghai has b̤.
>>
>> Ian Maddi*e*son
>>
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2023, at 18:11, Jesse P. Gates <stauskad at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Ians,
>>
>> I agree with Dr. Maddison, for breathy vs. aspirated, but what about bʱ
>> vs. b̤? Are these the same?
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 7:47 AM Ian Maddieson <ianm at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ian,
>>>
>>> The short answer is no, but with some nuance. Voiced aspirated
>>> consonants have a voiced  high airflow period after the constriction is
>>> released.
>>> These may often be also described as breathy voiced in some sources.
>>> However, breathy voiced consonants also occur in which the breathiness
>>> is essentially manifested during the constriction of the consonant with
>>> maybe a brief spillover and/or anticipation in an adjoining vowel. These
>>> are not phonetically equivalent to voiced aspirates. I don’t know of a
>>> languages that contrasts both types, so deciding if they are phonologically
>>> equivalent would depend on looking at other factors, such as
>>> distributional tendencies or co-occurrence patterns.
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>> On Mar 28, 2023, at 04:39, Ian Joo <ian_joo at nucba.ac.jp> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear typologists,
>>>
>>> Is there any meaningful distinction between voiced aspirated (e.g. /bʰ/)
>>> and breathy voiced (e.g. /b̤/) consonants, phonetically or
>>> phonologically?
>>> In other words, is it safe to say bʰ = bʱ = b̤?
>>>
>>> From Netherlands,
>>> Ian
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>
>>>
>>> Ian Maddieson
>>>
>>> Department of Linguistics
>>> University of New Mexico
>>> MSC03-2130
>>> Albuquerque NM 87131-0001
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lingtyp mailing list
>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>> *Jesse P. Gates, PhD*Nankai University, School of Literature 南开大学文学院
>> https://nankai.academia.edu/JesseGates
>>
>>
>> Ian Maddieson
>>
>> Department of Linguistics
>> University of New Mexico
>> MSC03-2130
>> Albuquerque NM 87131-0001
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Ian Maddieson
>
> Department of Linguistics
> University of New Mexico
> MSC03-2130
> Albuquerque NM 87131-0001
>
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20230329/b1f1e257/attachment.htm>