[Lingtyp] Voiced aspirated vs. breathy voiced consonants

[Ian Maddieson]

Jesse,

 /bʱ/ and /bʰ/ are simply notational variants, with /bʱ/ a more precise one, given that the airflow after the release is invariably voiced in [bʱ].

 /b̤/, as long as this notation is being used for a segment in which the breathiness is aligned with the consonantal constriction (and not as an alternative
notation for [bʱ]), represents a quite different phonetic entity with very different timing of the oral and laryngeal gestures.

Ian

> On Mar 28, 2023, at 20:08, Jesse P. Gates <stauskad at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Ian,
> 
> Thanks! So bʱ and bʰ are the same, but bʱ/bʰ are different from b̤? Or is it bʰ is different from bʱ and b̤? Or are all three different?
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jesse
> 
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:00 AM Ian Maddieson <ianm at berkeley.edu <mailto:ianm at berkeley.edu>> wrote:
>> Jesse,
>> 
>> That was exactly the distinction I was talking about. Hindi has bʱ, Shanghai has b̤.
>> 
>> Ian Maddieson
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 28, 2023, at 18:11, Jesse P. Gates <stauskad at gmail.com <mailto:stauskad at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear Ians,
>>> 
>>> I agree with Dr. Maddison, for breathy vs. aspirated, but what about bʱ vs. b̤? Are these the same?
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 7:47 AM Ian Maddieson <ianm at berkeley.edu <mailto:ianm at berkeley.edu>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Ian,
>>>> 
>>>> The short answer is no, but with some nuance. Voiced aspirated consonants have a voiced  high airflow period after the constriction is released.
>>>> These may often be also described as breathy voiced in some sources. However, breathy voiced consonants also occur in which the breathiness
>>>> is essentially manifested during the constriction of the consonant with maybe a brief spillover and/or anticipation in an adjoining vowel. These
>>>> are not phonetically equivalent to voiced aspirates. I don’t know of a languages that contrasts both types, so deciding if they are phonologically
>>>> equivalent would depend on looking at other factors, such as distributional tendencies or co-occurrence patterns. 
>>>> 
>>>> Ian
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 28, 2023, at 04:39, Ian Joo <ian_joo at nucba.ac.jp <mailto:ian_joo at nucba.ac.jp>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dear typologists,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is there any meaningful distinction between voiced aspirated (e.g. /bʰ/) and breathy voiced (e.g. /b̤/) consonants, phonetically or phonologically?
>>>>> In other words, is it safe to say bʰ = bʱ = b̤?
>>>>> 
>>>>> From Netherlands,
>>>>> Ian
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> Ian Maddieson
>>>> 
>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>> University of New Mexico
>>>> MSC03-2130
>>>> Albuquerque NM 87131-0001
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Jesse P. Gates, PhD
>>> Nankai University, School of Literature 南开大学文学院
>>> https://nankai.academia.edu/JesseGates
>> 
>> Ian Maddieson
>> 
>> Department of Linguistics
>> University of New Mexico
>> MSC03-2130
>> Albuquerque NM 87131-0001
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 

Ian Maddieson

Department of Linguistics
University of New Mexico
MSC03-2130
Albuquerque NM 87131-0001




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