[Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
Joseph Brooks
brooks.josephd at gmail.com
Thu May 11 13:42:21 UTC 2023
Interesting discussion. Wrt the 2nd person, does anyone out there know how
pronoun preferences for trans people work in languages where the 2nd person
distinguishes masculine and feminine? Hebrew is the only language I can
think of that might have a cultural context where this could be relevant.
It seems to me though it's not just politeness that's at issue. It's a
complex ideological issue, after all. But linguistically speaking, we are
all creatures of habit, and conforming one's linguistic practices to a
sudden sociolinguistic push to change usage, is bound to churn up all sorts
of complexities, no?
Personally I don't have an issue using someone's preferred pronouns unless
it's something too bizarre. As others have said, politeness would seem to
end the discussion, and that does make sense. But as an English speaker, I
can't get on board when I hear someone trying to justify alternative
pronouns by claiming that using they/them for 3rd persons is nothing new.
>From what I understand, English has indeed been doing that for centuries –
but only for indefinite referents. (Not sure about dialectal differences
here, I can only speak for US English). "I saw someone wearing a funny hat
out walking today, and then to my surprise they gave me their hat." But
never: *I saw a man .... they gave me their hat." It seems easy to say
"well because you already do the former, doing the latter is the same
thing" It's not the same thing, because discourse practices are real.
It's not surprising that anyone who has made an effort to use someone's
preferred pronouns in the current cultural climate, but doesn't "live" in
the social circles where that practice is normalized, might encounter
difficulties obeying the standards for pronoun usage. This is obviously
well outside of typology, but the social crime of misgendering or
"deadnaming" has quickly entered the realm of unforgivable offenses, as is
well known. Several months ago, I was having dinner with two old friends
(the last time I'd seen them, "misgendering" was not an English word). One
told a story about a woman at her work who kept (accidentally) slipping up
and calling someone 'she' who preferred they/them pronouns. Both of my
friends expressed extreme disgust that this person had "misgendered" the
individual several times, even though it was clear in the telling that she
just couldn't make her discourse practice match the social expectation.
(Presumably, because the woman is not steeped in the same social milieu as
my friends). Perhaps it is the understandable irk caused by such nonsense,
which led to Christian's comment.
Lastly I wonder about the difference in writing and speaking. I would find
it much easier to produce someone's preferred pronouns in writing/email, if
only because the sort of focus that writing demands, allows one (maybe?) to
remember things like an individual's preferences wrt their name or
pronouns. But when speaking on the fly... while one wishes to be polite...
well, some of us are just absent-minded or scatter-brained, or have more
important things on our minds than remembering additional information about
someone. We all make mistakes. It seems to me that giving grace and not
always assuming the worst of people, could go a long way in resolving the
conflicts that arise from this.
Joseph
On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 6:18 AM <lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Pronouns, politeness, political correctness (Juergen Bohnemeyer)
> 2. Re: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness (PONSONNET Maia)
> 3. Re: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> (Christian Lehmann)
> 4. Re: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> (Sebastian Nordhoff)
> 5. Re: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> (Nicholas Kontovas)
> 6. Re: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> (Mat?as Guzm?n Naranjo)
> 7. Re: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness (Emily M. Bender)
> 8. Re: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> (Christian Lehmann)
> 9. Re: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness (PONSONNET Maia)
> 10. Re: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> (Sebastian Nordhoff)
> 11. Re: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness (Peter Slomanson)
> 12. Re: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> (Sebastian Nordhoff)
> 13. ??: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness (Lixin Jin)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 14:18:18 +0000
> From: Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> To: Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>,
> "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID:
> <
> SJ0PR15MB469617AB8D8F90025857CD3DDD779 at SJ0PR15MB4696.namprd15.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Dear Christian ? I should preface this by saying that I don?t know what
> caused your request for people to refrain from asking to be addressed with
> their pronouns of choice. It?s very possible that I?m once again missing
> some earlier parts of this thread. I tried to recover all parts of it that
> had ended up in my spam folder, but it is entirely possible that I missed
> something and as result am misunderstanding your request.
>
> With that said:
>
> You can choose to look upon this matter as an instance of political
> correctness, but might I suggest that there is another aspect to it: simple
> politeness.
>
> Suppose somebody insists in calling/addressing you (as) Chris. You find
> this obnoxious and ask them to stop. They ignore you and continue calling
> you Chris.
>
> Would you not agree that this behavior is simply rude? I definitely would.
>
> Now the policy you are suggesting, if I understand correctly, would amount
> to asking people to refrain from even publicly objecting to being addressed
> in a rude manner. So anybody who feels offended by how they are being
> addressed or referred to should just either ?suck it up? or leave this
> board?
>
> Apparently, you believe that it is more constructive to not call out rude
> behavior and (allow people to) quietly suffer it.
>
> I on the other hand feel that it would be more constructive if everybody
> tried to refrain from being rude. If people are apparently being rude
> without realizing it, respectfully point it out to them. And if they still
> insist in their rude behavior even after it has been pointed out to them,
> call them out for it.
>
> So it seems we have different views of how to best maintain politeness in
> public forums.
>
> Best ? Juergen
>
>
>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> University at Buffalo
>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>
> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585
> 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>
> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> (Leonard Cohen)
> --
>
>
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 3:20 AM
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] what is designated by a complement clause
> Am 10.05.23 um 09:01 schrieb Sebastian Nordhoff:
> On 5/10/23 08:22, Christian Lehmann wrote:
>
> In order to keep the constructive atmosphere in which our communication
> takes place and which is a presupposition for the success of this list , I
> would request that everybody abstain from insisting on political
> correctness.
>
>
> some people might have a communication preference to not be referred to by
> "he".
> You have a preference of not being reminded of these preferences of theirs
> (unless I have misread your message).
>
> Since you request that other people adapt to your preferences,
> No, this is not what I request. I request that nobody should insist that
> others adapt to his preferences, in this and in similar respects.
>
> Best wishes,
> Christian
> --
>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> Rudolfstr. 4
> 99092 Erfurt
> Deutschland
> Tel.:
> +49/361/2113417
> E-Post:
> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de<mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
> Web:
> https://www.christianlehmann.eu<https://www.christianlehmann.eu/>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20230510/2d825901/attachment-0001.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 14:28:22 +0000
> From: PONSONNET Maia <maia.ponsonnet at cnrs.fr>
> To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID: <ff17124d4c5c4b5491870873ca94d826 at cnrs.fr>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Hello,
>
>
> I don't have strong view on pronouns and try my best to not hurt people
> when I communicate with them, including trying to match their preferred
> pronouns if I can.
>
>
> However, Juergen's parallel raises the question of whether one has the
> same "ownership" relationship to pronouns as they have to their personal
> name.
>
> Ultimately, I believe this raises important and interesting questions
> about our relationship to language in general?
>
>
> Cheers and kind regards to all,
>
> Ma?a (which is actually not the same as Maia, but I usually don't protest,
> because these French decorations are really tricky to produce on these
> empoverished qwerty keyboards)
>
>
> Ma?a Ponsonnet
>
> Charg?e de Recherche HDR @ CNRS Dynamique Du Langage
>
> 14, avenue Berthelot, 69007 Lyon, FRANCE -- +33 4 72 72 65 46
>
> Adjunct @ University of Western Australia
>
> + + + + +
>
> Co-r?dactrice en chef du Journal de la Soci?t? des Oc?anistes
>
> https://journals.openedition.org/jso/
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> De : Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de
> Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> Envoy? : mercredi 10 mai 2023 16:18
> ? : Christian Lehmann; lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Objet : [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
>
>
> Dear Christian ? I should preface this by saying that I don?t know what
> caused your request for people to refrain from asking to be addressed with
> their pronouns of choice. It?s very possible that I?m once again missing
> some earlier parts of this thread. I tried to recover all parts of it that
> had ended up in my spam folder, but it is entirely possible that I missed
> something and as result am misunderstanding your request.
>
>
>
> With that said:
>
>
>
> You can choose to look upon this matter as an instance of political
> correctness, but might I suggest that there is another aspect to it: simple
> politeness.
>
>
>
> Suppose somebody insists in calling/addressing you (as) Chris. You find
> this obnoxious and ask them to stop. They ignore you and continue calling
> you Chris.
>
>
>
> Would you not agree that this behavior is simply rude? I definitely would.
>
>
>
> Now the policy you are suggesting, if I understand correctly, would amount
> to asking people to refrain from even publicly objecting to being addressed
> in a rude manner. So anybody who feels offended by how they are being
> addressed or referred to should just either ?suck it up? or leave this
> board?
>
>
>
> Apparently, you believe that it is more constructive to not call out rude
> behavior and (allow people to) quietly suffer it.
>
>
>
> I on the other hand feel that it would be more constructive if everybody
> tried to refrain from being rude. If people are apparently being rude
> without realizing it, respectfully point it out to them. And if they still
> insist in their rude behavior even after it has been pointed out to them,
> call them out for it.
>
>
>
> So it seems we have different views of how to best maintain politeness in
> public forums.
>
>
>
> Best ? Juergen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> University at Buffalo
>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>
> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585
> 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>
> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> (Leonard Cohen)
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 3:20 AM
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] what is designated by a complement clause
>
> Am 10.05.23 um 09:01 schrieb Sebastian Nordhoff:
>
> On 5/10/23 08:22, Christian Lehmann wrote:
>
>
> In order to keep the constructive atmosphere in which our communication
> takes place and which is a presupposition for the success of this list , I
> would request that everybody abstain from insisting on political
> correctness.
>
>
> some people might have a communication preference to not be referred to by
> "he".
> You have a preference of not being reminded of these preferences of theirs
> (unless I have misread your message).
>
> Since you request that other people adapt to your preferences,
>
> No, this is not what I request. I request that nobody should insist that
> others adapt to his preferences, in this and in similar respects.
>
> Best wishes,
> Christian
>
> --
>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> Rudolfstr. 4
> 99092 Erfurt
> Deutschland
>
> Tel.:
>
>
> +49/361/2113417
>
>
> E-Post:
>
>
> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de<mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
>
>
> Web:
>
>
> https://www.christianlehmann.eu<https://www.christianlehmann.eu/>
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> URL: <
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20230510/b81aa9e4/attachment-0001.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 16:59:32 +0200
> From: Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID: <e5f5f899-2c17-7848-269f-11f2afd11284 at Uni-Erfurt.De>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> I should, first of all, say that it was not my intention to start a
> discussion on political correctness on this forum. On the one hand, it
> is pretty clear that, among all genuinely linguistic issues, this is the
> one which engages most people emotionally, which? means that a rational
> and constructive discussion is very hard to conduct. On the other, one
> may ask why this would be an appropriate topic for LingTyp. So, to
> repeat, the only thing that I requested was that people refrain from
> criticizing or commenting on other people's usage if political
> correctness is at stake. It seems that nobody among those who have taken
> up the topic is really against this request.
>
> This being said, it seems also clear that the issue involves a number of
> problems that are of linguistic interest (although not necessarily of
> typological interest). One is the question brought up by Ma?a: Do we
> have a right to determine our name? And further: Do we have a right to
> determine how our people (our ethnos), town and our country are called?
> (Remember that political correctness has often required speakers to
> stick to the most recent redenomination realized by locals.)
>
> Another is the question of politeness brought up by J?rgen: If I use an
> expression that some people find politically incorrect, at the same time
> sincerely and? credibly assuring interlocutors that I mean no harm (and
> if required, distancing myself explicitly from pejorative or otherwise
> negative connotations that some people associate with it), is it then me
> who is impolite or is it those people who insist that I speak otherwise?
>
> Again, these are issues of pragmatics rather than typology. But we
> typologists are not really that narrow-minded; so if people want to take
> it up, go ahead.
>
> Best,
> Christian
> --
>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> Rudolfstr. 4
> 99092 Erfurt
> Deutschland
>
> Tel.: +49/361/2113417
> E-Post: christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
> Web: https://www.christianlehmann.eu
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20230510/87eed0ac/attachment-0001.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 17:08:17 +0200
> From: Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID: <97cde146-c7a5-5cb8-8ddd-f26ee041a027 at glottotopia.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 5/10/23 16:28, PONSONNET Maia wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> > I don't have strong view on pronouns and try my best to not hurt people
> > when I communicate with them, including trying to match their preferred
> > pronouns if I can.
> >
> >
> > However, Juergen's parallel?raises the question of whether one has the
> > same "ownership" relationship to pronouns as they have to their personal
> > name.
>
> an interesting aspect is that "ownership" of 2nd person pronouns is not
> contested. You can request that someone use the V-form (vous, Sie,
> Usted) when addressing you, and it is universally accepted that they
> have to comply.
>
> The same is currently not true about 3rd person pronouns.
>
> There might be some "hierarchy of rudeness" between using a dispreferred
> 2nd person pronoun, a dispreferred 3rd person pronoun and a dispreferred
> (nick)name.
>
> The 3rd person part of such a hierarchy probably needs to be split up.
> In my perception, it is ruder to say "Noam, she" than "any researcher
> who publishes his research", but I am not aware of any research backing
> this claim.
>
> Best wishes
> Sebastian
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Ultimately, I believe?this raises important and?interesting questions
> > about our relationship to language in general?
> >
> >
> > Cheers and kind regards to all,
> >
> > Ma?a (which is actually not the same as Maia, but I usually don't
> > protest, because these French decorations are really tricky to produce
> > on these?empoverished qwerty keyboards)
> >
> >
> > Ma?a Ponsonnet
> >
> > Charg?e de Recherche HDR @?CNRS Dynamique Du Langage
> >
> > 14, avenue Berthelot, 69007 Lyon, FRANCE? -- +33 4 72 72 65 46
> >
> > Adjunct @?University of Western Australia
> >
> > +?+?+?+ +
> >
> > Co-r?dactrice en chef du /Journal de la Soci?t? des Oc?anistes/
> >
> > https://journals.openedition.org/jso/
> > <https://journals.openedition.org/jso/>
> >
> > /
> > /
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part
> de
> > Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> > *Envoy? :* mercredi 10 mai 2023 16:18
> > *? :* Christian Lehmann; lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > *Objet :* [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> >
> > Dear Christian ? I should preface this by saying that I don?t know what
> > caused your request for people to refrain from asking to be addressed
> > with their pronouns of choice. It?s very possible that I?m once again
> > missing some earlier parts of this thread. I tried to recover all parts
> > of it that had ended up in my spam folder, but it is entirely possible
> > that I missed something and as result am misunderstanding your request.
> >
> > With that said:
> >
> > You can choose to look upon this matter as an instance of political
> > correctness, but might I suggest that there is another aspect to it:
> > simple politeness.
> >
> > Suppose somebody insists in calling/addressing you (as) /Chris/. You
> > find this obnoxious and ask them to stop. They ignore you and continue
> > calling you /Chris/.
> >
> > Would you not agree that this behavior is simply rude? I definitely
> would.
> >
> > Now the policy you are suggesting, if I understand correctly, would
> > amount to asking people to refrain from even publicly objecting to being
> > addressed in a rude manner. So anybody who feels offended by how they
> > are being addressed or referred to should just either ?suck it up? or
> > leave this board?
> >
> > Apparently, you believe that it is more constructive to not call out
> > rude behavior and (allow people to) quietly suffer it.
> >
> > I on the other hand feel that it would be more constructive if everybody
> > tried to refrain from being rude. If people are apparently being rude
> > without realizing it, respectfully point it out to them. And if they
> > still insist in their rude behavior even after it has been pointed out
> > to them, call them out for it.
> >
> > So it seems we have different views of how to best maintain politeness
> > in public forums.
> >
> > Best ? Juergen
> >
> > Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> > Professor, Department of Linguistics
> > University at Buffalo
> >
> > Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> > Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> > Phone: (716) 645 0127
> > Fax: (716) 645 3825
> > Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu <mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> > Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/ <
> http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/>
> >
> > Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585
> > 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
> >
> > There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> > (Leonard Cohen)
> >
> > --
> >
> > *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf
> of
> > Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> > *Date: *Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 3:20 AM
> > *To: *lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] what is designated by a complement clause
> >
> > Am 10.05.23 um 09:01 schrieb Sebastian Nordhoff:
> >
> > On 5/10/23 08:22, Christian Lehmann wrote:
> >
> > In order to keep the constructive atmosphere in? which our
> > communication takes place and which is a presupposition for the
> > success of this list , I would request that everybody abstain
> > from insisting on political correctness.
> >
> >
> >
> > some people might have a communication preference to not be referred
> > to by "he".
> > You have a preference of not being reminded of these preferences of
> > theirs (unless I have misread your message).
> >
> > Since you request that other people adapt to your preferences,
> >
> > No, this is not what I request. I request that nobody should insist that
> > others adapt to his preferences, in this and in similar respects.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Christian
> >
> > --
> >
> > Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> > Rudolfstr. 4
> > 99092 Erfurt
> > Deutschland
> >
> > Tel.:
> >
> >
> >
> > +49/361/2113417
> >
> > E-Post:
> >
> >
> >
> > christianw_lehmann at arcor.de <mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
> >
> > Web:
> >
> >
> >
> > https://www.christianlehmann.eu <https://www.christianlehmann.eu/>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 16:18:26 +0100
> From: Nicholas Kontovas <kontovas at gmail.com>
> Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID:
> <CAEoTs9ZNcq9vxrgFSUCYbYy27n+m1p1gzmq-a=
> 3SY7chCDs6yg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I sent a version of this message earlier, but realised just now I only sent
> it to Christian.
>
> Maybe it's just me, but as a native speaker of English, when there is a
> referent whose gender is unknown or a hypothetical referent of unspecified
> gender, it actually sounds strange enough to border on ungrammatical to use
> third person singular masculine pronouns. It makes it seem as if there is a
> specific person of whom the speaker is aware but that they've forgotten to
> introduce them in the preceding discourse.
>
> I know there is no common gender non-specified third person singular
> pronoun in German, so knowing that Christian is German, I wouldn't have
> thought twice about the error unless he'd drawn attention to it. I would
> think it was just obvious interference from German. That said, it does seem
> bizarrely antagonistic to pre-empt any comments on it out of the blue.
> There are plenty of reasons not to prefer that construction that have
> nothing to do with "political correctness"; it just doesn't fit my native
> speaker intuition.
>
> If we'd like to make the discussion more linguistic, maybe other native
> English speakers can chime in with their judgements on "he" for referents
> of unspecified gender :-) Also, maybe mention your native dialect to see if
> that matters. Mine is working-class NYC metro area English.
>
> Best,
>
> Niko
>
> On Wed, 10 May 2023, 15:59 Christian Lehmann, <
> christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de> wrote:
>
> > Dear colleagues,
> >
> > I should, first of all, say that it was not my intention to start a
> > discussion on political correctness on this forum. On the one hand, it is
> > pretty clear that, among all genuinely linguistic issues, this is the one
> > which engages most people emotionally, which means that a rational and
> > constructive discussion is very hard to conduct. On the other, one may
> ask
> > why this would be an appropriate topic for LingTyp. So, to repeat, the
> only
> > thing that I requested was that people refrain from criticizing or
> > commenting on other people's usage if political correctness is at stake.
> It
> > seems that nobody among those who have taken up the topic is really
> against
> > this request.
> >
> > This being said, it seems also clear that the issue involves a number of
> > problems that are of linguistic interest (although not necessarily of
> > typological interest). One is the question brought up by Ma?a: Do we
> have a
> > right to determine our name? And further: Do we have a right to determine
> > how our people (our ethnos), town and our country are called? (Remember
> > that political correctness has often required speakers to stick to the
> most
> > recent redenomination realized by locals.)
> >
> > Another is the question of politeness brought up by J?rgen: If I use an
> > expression that some people find politically incorrect, at the same time
> > sincerely and credibly assuring interlocutors that I mean no harm (and
> if
> > required, distancing myself explicitly from pejorative or otherwise
> > negative connotations that some people associate with it), is it then me
> > who is impolite or is it those people who insist that I speak otherwise?
> >
> > Again, these are issues of pragmatics rather than typology. But we
> > typologists are not really that narrow-minded; so if people want to take
> it
> > up, go ahead.
> >
> > Best,
> > Christian
> > --
> >
> > Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> > Rudolfstr. 4
> > 99092 Erfurt
> > Deutschland
> > Tel.: +49/361/2113417
> > E-Post: christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
> > Web: https://www.christianlehmann.eu
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 17:28:56 +0200
> From: Mat?as Guzm?n Naranjo <mguzmann89 at gmail.com>
> To: Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>
> Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID:
> <CAEXSTaVtnpY_e_xdswP+=HtE=
> f6WViTGTqF47vfuovg9fHhG1Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> >
> > You can request that someone use the V-form (vous, Sie,
> > Usted) when addressing you, and it is universally accepted that they
> > have to comply.
>
>
> This is interesting. The other way around is clearly not true (in my
> Spanish at least).
> Has this been studied/do you have a reference?
>
> El mi?, 10 may 2023 a las 17:08, Sebastian Nordhoff (<
> sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>) escribi?:
>
> > On 5/10/23 16:28, PONSONNET Maia wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't have strong view on pronouns and try my best to not hurt people
> > > when I communicate with them, including trying to match their preferred
> > > pronouns if I can.
> > >
> > >
> > > However, Juergen's parallel raises the question of whether one has the
> > > same "ownership" relationship to pronouns as they have to their
> personal
> > > name.
> >
> > an interesting aspect is that "ownership" of 2nd person pronouns is not
> > contested. You can request that someone use the V-form (vous, Sie,
> > Usted) when addressing you, and it is universally accepted that they
> > have to comply.
> >
> > The same is currently not true about 3rd person pronouns.
> >
> > There might be some "hierarchy of rudeness" between using a dispreferred
> > 2nd person pronoun, a dispreferred 3rd person pronoun and a dispreferred
> > (nick)name.
> >
> > The 3rd person part of such a hierarchy probably needs to be split up.
> > In my perception, it is ruder to say "Noam, she" than "any researcher
> > who publishes his research", but I am not aware of any research backing
> > this claim.
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Sebastian
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Ultimately, I believe this raises important and interesting questions
> > > about our relationship to language in general?
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers and kind regards to all,
> > >
> > > Ma?a (which is actually not the same as Maia, but I usually don't
> > > protest, because these French decorations are really tricky to produce
> > > on these empoverished qwerty keyboards)
> > >
> > >
> > > Ma?a Ponsonnet
> > >
> > > Charg?e de Recherche HDR @ CNRS Dynamique Du Langage
> > >
> > > 14, avenue Berthelot, 69007 Lyon, FRANCE -- +33 4 72 72 65 46
> > >
> > > Adjunct @ University of Western Australia
> > >
> > > + + + + +
> > >
> > > Co-r?dactrice en chef du /Journal de la Soci?t? des Oc?anistes/
> > >
> > > https://journals.openedition.org/jso/
> > > <https://journals.openedition.org/jso/>
> > >
> > > /
> > > /
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part
> > de
> > > Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> > > *Envoy? :* mercredi 10 mai 2023 16:18
> > > *? :* Christian Lehmann; lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > *Objet :* [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> > >
> > > Dear Christian ? I should preface this by saying that I don?t know what
> > > caused your request for people to refrain from asking to be addressed
> > > with their pronouns of choice. It?s very possible that I?m once again
> > > missing some earlier parts of this thread. I tried to recover all parts
> > > of it that had ended up in my spam folder, but it is entirely possible
> > > that I missed something and as result am misunderstanding your request.
> > >
> > > With that said:
> > >
> > > You can choose to look upon this matter as an instance of political
> > > correctness, but might I suggest that there is another aspect to it:
> > > simple politeness.
> > >
> > > Suppose somebody insists in calling/addressing you (as) /Chris/. You
> > > find this obnoxious and ask them to stop. They ignore you and continue
> > > calling you /Chris/.
> > >
> > > Would you not agree that this behavior is simply rude? I definitely
> > would.
> > >
> > > Now the policy you are suggesting, if I understand correctly, would
> > > amount to asking people to refrain from even publicly objecting to
> being
> > > addressed in a rude manner. So anybody who feels offended by how they
> > > are being addressed or referred to should just either ?suck it up? or
> > > leave this board?
> > >
> > > Apparently, you believe that it is more constructive to not call out
> > > rude behavior and (allow people to) quietly suffer it.
> > >
> > > I on the other hand feel that it would be more constructive if
> everybody
> > > tried to refrain from being rude. If people are apparently being rude
> > > without realizing it, respectfully point it out to them. And if they
> > > still insist in their rude behavior even after it has been pointed out
> > > to them, call them out for it.
> > >
> > > So it seems we have different views of how to best maintain politeness
> > > in public forums.
> > >
> > > Best ? Juergen
> > >
> > > Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> > > Professor, Department of Linguistics
> > > University at Buffalo
> > >
> > > Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> > > Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> > > Phone: (716) 645 0127
> > > Fax: (716) 645 3825
> > > Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu <mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> > > Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/ <
> > http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/>
> > >
> > > Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585
> > > 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
> > >
> > > There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> > > (Leonard Cohen)
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf
> > of
> > > Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> > > *Date: *Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 3:20 AM
> > > *To: *lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > > *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] what is designated by a complement clause
> > >
> > > Am 10.05.23 um 09:01 schrieb Sebastian Nordhoff:
> > >
> > > On 5/10/23 08:22, Christian Lehmann wrote:
> > >
> > > In order to keep the constructive atmosphere in which our
> > > communication takes place and which is a presupposition for the
> > > success of this list , I would request that everybody abstain
> > > from insisting on political correctness.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > some people might have a communication preference to not be
> referred
> > > to by "he".
> > > You have a preference of not being reminded of these preferences of
> > > theirs (unless I have misread your message).
> > >
> > > Since you request that other people adapt to your preferences,
> > >
> > > No, this is not what I request. I request that nobody should insist
> that
> > > others adapt to his preferences, in this and in similar respects.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Christian
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> > > Rudolfstr. 4
> > > 99092 Erfurt
> > > Deutschland
> > >
> > > Tel.:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > +49/361/2113417
> > >
> > > E-Post:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > christianw_lehmann at arcor.de <mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
> > >
> > > Web:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > https://www.christianlehmann.eu <https://www.christianlehmann.eu/>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Lingtyp mailing list
> > > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >
>
>
> --
> Dr. Mat?as Guzm?n Naranjo
> Sprachwissenschaftliches Seminar
> Albert-Ludwigs-Universit?t Freiburg
> https://mguzmann89.gitlab.io/
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 17:29:23 +0200
> From: "Emily M. Bender" <ebender at uw.edu>
> To: Nicholas Kontovas <kontovas at gmail.com>
> Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAMype6eiPdwXBWBGNVdLpUjH3pbfjxpbBA9YhWt9kfhDXbMD3w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> L1 English here (acquired in Seattle, WA, USA). "He" for a referent of
> unknown gender sounds archaic and presumptuous to me.
>
> Also, in the case of specific/known referents, using the pronouns that a
> person says are correct for them is a simple matter of politeness. Refusing
> to do so (or getting defensive when corrected) is rude. I see it as related
> to but slightly different from continuing to use a nickname (or someone's
> former last name if they've made a change, etc). Both names and gender as
> reflected in pronouns are a matter of identity. To assert that someone
> isn't the actual authority on what their own name is or what pronouns
> accurately reflect their gender is to assert that you know better than them
> something about their own identity.
>
> I put "slightly different" above because I think that the way gender as a
> category figures into identity is probably somewhat different to the way
> names (which aren't categories in the same way, but might index some
> categories) do. Also, the name/nick name choice connects with levels of
> intimacy (as does title+last name/first name). These reflections are from
> my position as a speaker of English, with experience with a few other
> languages. It would be interested to look into a typology of what aspects
> of identity/identity categories names can index as well as how naming
> choices construct intimacy cross-linguistically.
>
> In Seattle (where I still am) we now have fairly solid community norms
> around indicating our own pronouns. This is considered polite, because it
> saves other people from the uncomfortable position of having to guess which
> pronouns to use (or having to ask, which can be somewhat awkward). We try
> to do this in ways that are opt-in, so no one feels put on the spot to
> declare their pronouns, and to be respectful about the information when we
> have it -- i.e. to behave consistently with the fact that people are the
> authorities on their own identities.
>
> Emily
>
>
> On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 5:18?PM Nicholas Kontovas <kontovas at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I sent a version of this message earlier, but realised just now I only
> > sent it to Christian. Maybe it's just me, but as a native speaker of
> > English, when there is a referent whose gender is unknown or a
> hypothetical
> > referent of unspecified
> > ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
> > This Message Is From an Untrusted Sender
> > You have not previously corresponded with this sender.
> > See https://itconnect.uw.edu/email-tags for additional information.
> > Please contact the UW-IT Service Center, help at uw.edu 206.221.5000, for
> > assistance.
> >
> > ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
> > I sent a version of this message earlier, but realised just now I only
> > sent it to Christian.
> >
> > Maybe it's just me, but as a native speaker of English, when there is a
> > referent whose gender is unknown or a hypothetical referent of
> unspecified
> > gender, it actually sounds strange enough to border on ungrammatical to
> use
> > third person singular masculine pronouns. It makes it seem as if there
> is a
> > specific person of whom the speaker is aware but that they've forgotten
> to
> > introduce them in the preceding discourse.
> >
> > I know there is no common gender non-specified third person singular
> > pronoun in German, so knowing that Christian is German, I wouldn't have
> > thought twice about the error unless he'd drawn attention to it. I would
> > think it was just obvious interference from German. That said, it does
> seem
> > bizarrely antagonistic to pre-empt any comments on it out of the blue.
> > There are plenty of reasons not to prefer that construction that have
> > nothing to do with "political correctness"; it just doesn't fit my native
> > speaker intuition.
> >
> > If we'd like to make the discussion more linguistic, maybe other native
> > English speakers can chime in with their judgements on "he" for referents
> > of unspecified gender :-) Also, maybe mention your native dialect to see
> if
> > that matters. Mine is working-class NYC metro area English.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Niko
> >
> > On Wed, 10 May 2023, 15:59 Christian Lehmann, <
> > christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear colleagues,
> >>
> >> I should, first of all, say that it was not my intention to start a
> >> discussion on political correctness on this forum. On the one hand, it
> is
> >> pretty clear that, among all genuinely linguistic issues, this is the
> one
> >> which engages most people emotionally, which means that a rational and
> >> constructive discussion is very hard to conduct. On the other, one may
> ask
> >> why this would be an appropriate topic for LingTyp. So, to repeat, the
> only
> >> thing that I requested was that people refrain from criticizing or
> >> commenting on other people's usage if political correctness is at
> stake. It
> >> seems that nobody among those who have taken up the topic is really
> against
> >> this request.
> >>
> >> This being said, it seems also clear that the issue involves a number of
> >> problems that are of linguistic interest (although not necessarily of
> >> typological interest). One is the question brought up by Ma?a: Do we
> have a
> >> right to determine our name? And further: Do we have a right to
> determine
> >> how our people (our ethnos), town and our country are called? (Remember
> >> that political correctness has often required speakers to stick to the
> most
> >> recent redenomination realized by locals.)
> >>
> >> Another is the question of politeness brought up by J?rgen: If I use an
> >> expression that some people find politically incorrect, at the same time
> >> sincerely and credibly assuring interlocutors that I mean no harm (and
> if
> >> required, distancing myself explicitly from pejorative or otherwise
> >> negative connotations that some people associate with it), is it then me
> >> who is impolite or is it those people who insist that I speak otherwise?
> >>
> >> Again, these are issues of pragmatics rather than typology. But we
> >> typologists are not really that narrow-minded; so if people want to
> take it
> >> up, go ahead.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Christian
> >> --
> >>
> >> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> >> Rudolfstr. 4
> >> 99092 Erfurt
> >> Deutschland
> >> Tel.: +49/361/2113417
> >> E-Post: christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
> >> Web: https://www.christianlehmann.eu
> >> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.christianlehmann.eu__;!!K-Hz7m0Vt54!liKJ8VyvExCDj8jMWbwjCs97aRYzKSSeUU85dlEUv3-4xzHeyj9QpfmkcIiBP-JHGW1ZvKgVlXHKzsrjFSnzpQ$
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Lingtyp mailing list
> >> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp__;!!K-Hz7m0Vt54!liKJ8VyvExCDj8jMWbwjCs97aRYzKSSeUU85dlEUv3-4xzHeyj9QpfmkcIiBP-JHGW1ZvKgVlXHKzsozrZPXSg$
> >
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp__;!!K-Hz7m0Vt54!liKJ8VyvExCDj8jMWbwjCs97aRYzKSSeUU85dlEUv3-4xzHeyj9QpfmkcIiBP-JHGW1ZvKgVlXHKzsozrZPXSg$
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 17:41:30 +0200
> From: Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID: <b4b9bbc4-652b-e5c1-8b9e-50d03aaa3e5a at Uni-Erfurt.De>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
>
> Sebastian, your hierarchy looks interesting.
> >
> > an interesting aspect is that "ownership" of 2nd person pronouns is
> > not contested. You can request that someone use the V-form (vous, Sie,
> > Usted) when addressing you, and it is universally accepted that they
> > have to comply.
> It has happened to me repeatedly that according to my standards, I
> treated a stranger by /Sie/, and then he (less often, she) told me that
> this did not correspond to his standards and continued to address me by
> /du/.
>
> So I agree, there is a hierarchy, and it apparently involves more than
> just the pronouns of the three persons.
>
> --
>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> Rudolfstr. 4
> 99092 Erfurt
> Deutschland
>
> Tel.: +49/361/2113417
> E-Post: christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
> Web: https://www.christianlehmann.eu
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 16:11:03 +0000
> From: PONSONNET Maia <maia.ponsonnet at cnrs.fr>
> To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID: <74c93f6f59f445f49b3595c24d27dd9b at cnrs.fr>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Hello,
>
>
> This is very interesting indeed!
>
> I hope someone has studied this or will.
>
>
> I'm not sure I agree that ownership of 2nd person alternations are not
> contested.
>
> I think I'd say (following Silverstein and many others since) that
> contestation IS - along with its converse, imposition - the whole point of
> having this sort of alternation in a language?
>
>
> Cheers, Ma?a
>
>
> Ma?a Ponsonnet
>
> Charg?e de Recherche HDR @ CNRS Dynamique Du Langage
>
> 14, avenue Berthelot, 69007 Lyon, FRANCE -- +33 4 72 72 65 46
>
> Adjunct @ University of Western Australia
>
> + + + + +
>
> Co-r?dactrice en chef du Journal de la Soci?t? des Oc?anistes
>
> https://journals.openedition.org/jso/
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> De : Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de
> Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>
> Envoy? : mercredi 10 mai 2023 17:08
> ? : lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Objet : Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
>
> On 5/10/23 16:28, PONSONNET Maia wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> > I don't have strong view on pronouns and try my best to not hurt people
> > when I communicate with them, including trying to match their preferred
> > pronouns if I can.
> >
> >
> > However, Juergen's parallel raises the question of whether one has the
> > same "ownership" relationship to pronouns as they have to their personal
> > name.
>
> an interesting aspect is that "ownership" of 2nd person pronouns is not
> contested. You can request that someone use the V-form (vous, Sie,
> Usted) when addressing you, and it is universally accepted that they
> have to comply.
>
> The same is currently not true about 3rd person pronouns.
>
> There might be some "hierarchy of rudeness" between using a dispreferred
> 2nd person pronoun, a dispreferred 3rd person pronoun and a dispreferred
> (nick)name.
>
> The 3rd person part of such a hierarchy probably needs to be split up.
> In my perception, it is ruder to say "Noam, she" than "any researcher
> who publishes his research", but I am not aware of any research backing
> this claim.
>
> Best wishes
> Sebastian
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Ultimately, I believe this raises important and interesting questions
> > about our relationship to language in general?
> >
> >
> > Cheers and kind regards to all,
> >
> > Ma?a (which is actually not the same as Maia, but I usually don't
> > protest, because these French decorations are really tricky to produce
> > on these empoverished qwerty keyboards)
> >
> >
> > Ma?a Ponsonnet
> >
> > Charg?e de Recherche HDR @ CNRS Dynamique Du Langage
> >
> > 14, avenue Berthelot, 69007 Lyon, FRANCE -- +33 4 72 72 65 46
> >
> > Adjunct @ University of Western Australia
> >
> > + + + + +
> >
> > Co-r?dactrice en chef du /Journal de la Soci?t? des Oc?anistes/
> >
> > https://journals.openedition.org/jso/
> > <https://journals.openedition.org/jso/>
> >
> > /
> > /
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de
> > Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> > *Envoy? :* mercredi 10 mai 2023 16:18
> > *? :* Christian Lehmann; lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > *Objet :* [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> >
> > Dear Christian ? I should preface this by saying that I don?t know what
> > caused your request for people to refrain from asking to be addressed
> > with their pronouns of choice. It?s very possible that I?m once again
> > missing some earlier parts of this thread. I tried to recover all parts
> > of it that had ended up in my spam folder, but it is entirely possible
> > that I missed something and as result am misunderstanding your request.
> >
> > With that said:
> >
> > You can choose to look upon this matter as an instance of political
> > correctness, but might I suggest that there is another aspect to it:
> > simple politeness.
> >
> > Suppose somebody insists in calling/addressing you (as) /Chris/. You
> > find this obnoxious and ask them to stop. They ignore you and continue
> > calling you /Chris/.
> >
> > Would you not agree that this behavior is simply rude? I definitely
> would.
> >
> > Now the policy you are suggesting, if I understand correctly, would
> > amount to asking people to refrain from even publicly objecting to being
> > addressed in a rude manner. So anybody who feels offended by how they
> > are being addressed or referred to should just either ?suck it up? or
> > leave this board?
> >
> > Apparently, you believe that it is more constructive to not call out
> > rude behavior and (allow people to) quietly suffer it.
> >
> > I on the other hand feel that it would be more constructive if everybody
> > tried to refrain from being rude. If people are apparently being rude
> > without realizing it, respectfully point it out to them. And if they
> > still insist in their rude behavior even after it has been pointed out
> > to them, call them out for it.
> >
> > So it seems we have different views of how to best maintain politeness
> > in public forums.
> >
> > Best ? Juergen
> >
> > Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> > Professor, Department of Linguistics
> > University at Buffalo
> >
> > Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> > Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> > Phone: (716) 645 0127
> > Fax: (716) 645 3825
> > Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu <mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> > Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/ <
> http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/>
> >
> > Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585
> > 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
> >
> > There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> > (Leonard Cohen)
> >
> > --
> >
> > *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> > Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> > *Date: *Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 3:20 AM
> > *To: *lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] what is designated by a complement clause
> >
> > Am 10.05.23 um 09:01 schrieb Sebastian Nordhoff:
> >
> > On 5/10/23 08:22, Christian Lehmann wrote:
> >
> > In order to keep the constructive atmosphere in which our
> > communication takes place and which is a presupposition for the
> > success of this list , I would request that everybody abstain
> > from insisting on political correctness.
> >
> >
> >
> > some people might have a communication preference to not be referred
> > to by "he".
> > You have a preference of not being reminded of these preferences of
> > theirs (unless I have misread your message).
> >
> > Since you request that other people adapt to your preferences,
> >
> > No, this is not what I request. I request that nobody should insist that
> > others adapt to his preferences, in this and in similar respects.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Christian
> >
> > --
> >
> > Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> > Rudolfstr. 4
> > 99092 Erfurt
> > Deutschland
> >
> > Tel.:
> >
> >
> >
> > +49/361/2113417
> >
> > E-Post:
> >
> >
> >
> > christianw_lehmann at arcor.de <mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
> >
> > Web:
> >
> >
> >
> > https://www.christianlehmann.eu <https://www.christianlehmann.eu/>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 18:30:32 +0200
> From: Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID: <97982927-ae91-ec7c-86f9-7f6bf713f28e at glottotopia.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 5/10/23 18:11, PONSONNET Maia wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> > This is very interesting indeed!
> >
> > I hope someone has studied this or will.
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure I agree that ownership of 2nd person alternations are not
> > contested.
> >
> > I think I'd say (following Silverstein and many others since) that
> > contestation?IS - along with its converse, imposition? - /the/?whole
> > point of having this sort of alternation in a language?
>
> I meant that the fact that the choice of second person pronouns has
> implications for politeness/rudeness is universally accepted. You cannot
> feign ignorance. You can seriously offend people with a particular
> choice for 2sg, and everybody knows that (and can willfully make use of
> it in particular situations).
>
> What is currently not universally accepted yet (as per this thread, and
> at least in Europe) is that the choice of particular **third person**
> pronoun can also have implications on politeness/rudeness. Some people
> will deny any intentions to be rude with their choice of 3rd person
> pronouns.
>
> (Obviously, there are languages where you can be rude with first person
> pronouns as well. Sri Lanka Malay has /se/ and /go/ for 1sg, and the
> latter is considered really vulgar.)
>
> Best
> Sebastian
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 22:28:56 +0300
> From: Peter Slomanson <slomanson at gmail.com>
> To: Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>
> Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAC-Pu-VVZE_sd5ssRdMO9xxqakgXjzBo-yuNqrVzBW-SxW33kw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Difficult for me to resist responding to the last parenthetical comment in
> an interesting discussion. In certain heavily Sri Lankan Malay-speaking
> communities, /se/ is understood, but only very rarely used, whereas /go/ is
> used in all social contexts. The split you describe is basically no longer
> there, though it remains in other parts of the country. I'm not
> contradicting the accuracy of your observation or its relevance, only
> adding the dialect variation.
>
> Best,
> Peter Slomanson
>
> On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 7:30?PM Sebastian Nordhoff <
> sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de> wrote:
>
> > On 5/10/23 18:11, PONSONNET Maia wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > >
> > > This is very interesting indeed!
> > >
> > > I hope someone has studied this or will.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm not sure I agree that ownership of 2nd person alternations are not
> > > contested.
> > >
> > > I think I'd say (following Silverstein and many others since) that
> > > contestation IS - along with its converse, imposition - /the/ whole
> > > point of having this sort of alternation in a language?
> >
> > I meant that the fact that the choice of second person pronouns has
> > implications for politeness/rudeness is universally accepted. You cannot
> > feign ignorance. You can seriously offend people with a particular
> > choice for 2sg, and everybody knows that (and can willfully make use of
> > it in particular situations).
> >
> > What is currently not universally accepted yet (as per this thread, and
> > at least in Europe) is that the choice of particular **third person**
> > pronoun can also have implications on politeness/rudeness. Some people
> > will deny any intentions to be rude with their choice of 3rd person
> > pronouns.
> >
> > (Obviously, there are languages where you can be rude with first person
> > pronouns as well. Sri Lanka Malay has /se/ and /go/ for 1sg, and the
> > latter is considered really vulgar.)
> >
> > Best
> > Sebastian
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 23:27:02 +0200
> From: Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>
> To: Peter Slomanson <slomanson at gmail.com>
> Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID: <1a6c1f5e-2e68-d5e6-6a84-73b179f25c1d at glottotopia.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 5/10/23 21:28, Peter Slomanson wrote:
> > Difficult for me to resist responding to the last parenthetical comment
> > in an interesting discussion. In certain heavily Sri Lankan
> > Malay-speaking communities, /se/ is understood, but only very rarely
> > used, whereas /go/ is used in all social contexts. The split you
> > describe is basically no longer there, though it remains in other parts
> > of the country. I'm not contradicting the accuracy of your observation
> > or its relevance, only adding the dialect variation.
>
> Hi Peter,
> I was thinking about adding a parenthetical remark about the Kirinda
> dialect, but then thought, nah, rather leave it out. Well, you caught me
> there...
> Best
> Sebastian
>
>
> >
> > Best,
> > Peter Slomanson
> >
> > On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 7:30?PM Sebastian Nordhoff
> > <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de
> > <mailto:sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>> wrote:
> >
> > On 5/10/23 18:11, PONSONNET Maia wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > >
> > > This is very interesting indeed!
> > >
> > > I hope someone has studied this or will.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm not sure I agree that ownership of 2nd person alternations
> > are not
> > > contested.
> > >
> > > I think I'd say (following Silverstein and many others since) that
> > > contestation?IS - along with its converse, imposition? -
> /the/?whole
> > > point of having this sort of alternation in a language?
> >
> > I meant that the fact that the choice of second person pronouns has
> > implications for politeness/rudeness is universally accepted. You
> > cannot
> > feign ignorance. You can seriously offend people with a particular
> > choice for 2sg, and everybody knows that (and can willfully make use
> of
> > it in particular situations).
> >
> > What is currently not universally accepted yet (as per this thread,
> and
> > at least in Europe) is that the choice of particular **third person**
> > pronoun can also have implications on politeness/rudeness. Some
> people
> > will deny any intentions to be rude with their choice of 3rd person
> > pronouns.
> >
> > (Obviously, there are languages where you can be rude with first
> person
> > pronouns as well. Sri Lanka Malay has /se/ and /go/ for 1sg, and the
> > latter is considered really vulgar.)
> >
> > Best
> > Sebastian
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> > <https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 09:18:15 +0000
> From: Lixin Jin <jinlixin at hotmail.com>
> To: "Emily M. Bender" <ebender at uw.edu>, Nicholas Kontovas
> <kontovas at gmail.com>
> Cc: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: [Lingtyp] ??: Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
> Message-ID:
> <
> MWHPR1001MB2366DD0EFCBF02035CD21D70D8749 at MWHPR1001MB2366.namprd10.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> This is interesting. At least in Mandarin, Korean and Japanese, it is not
> polite to use third-person pronouns in interviews. It is common to address
> a third person in an interview using the structure "surname + title". This
> may be related to the type of word order, but in VO languages there is a
> preference for "title + surname". Is that so?
>
>
> Lixin
>
> ________________________________
> ???: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> ?? Emily M.
> Bender <ebender at uw.edu>
> ????: 2023?5?10? 17:29
> ???: Nicholas Kontovas <kontovas at gmail.com>
> ??: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> ??: Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness
>
> L1 English here (acquired in Seattle, WA, USA). "He" for a referent of
> unknown gender sounds archaic and presumptuous to me.
>
> Also, in the case of specific/known referents, using the pronouns that a
> person says are correct for them is a simple matter of politeness. Refusing
> to do so (or getting defensive when corrected) is rude. I see it as related
> to but slightly different from continuing to use a nickname (or someone's
> former last name if they've made a change, etc). Both names and gender as
> reflected in pronouns are a matter of identity. To assert that someone
> isn't the actual authority on what their own name is or what pronouns
> accurately reflect their gender is to assert that you know better than them
> something about their own identity.
>
> I put "slightly different" above because I think that the way gender as a
> category figures into identity is probably somewhat different to the way
> names (which aren't categories in the same way, but might index some
> categories) do. Also, the name/nick name choice connects with levels of
> intimacy (as does title+last name/first name). These reflections are from
> my position as a speaker of English, with experience with a few other
> languages. It would be interested to look into a typology of what aspects
> of identity/identity categories names can index as well as how naming
> choices construct intimacy cross-linguistically.
>
> In Seattle (where I still am) we now have fairly solid community norms
> around indicating our own pronouns. This is considered polite, because it
> saves other people from the uncomfortable position of having to guess which
> pronouns to use (or having to ask, which can be somewhat awkward). We try
> to do this in ways that are opt-in, so no one feels put on the spot to
> declare their pronouns, and to be respectful about the information when we
> have it -- i.e. to behave consistently with the fact that people are the
> authorities on their own identities.
>
> Emily
>
>
> On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 5:18?PM Nicholas Kontovas <kontovas at gmail.com
> <mailto:kontovas at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I sent a version of this message earlier, but realised just now I only
> sent it to Christian. Maybe it's just me, but as a native speaker of
> English, when there is a referent whose gender is unknown or a hypothetical
> referent of unspecified
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> I sent a version of this message earlier, but realised just now I only
> sent it to Christian.
>
> Maybe it's just me, but as a native speaker of English, when there is a
> referent whose gender is unknown or a hypothetical referent of unspecified
> gender, it actually sounds strange enough to border on ungrammatical to use
> third person singular masculine pronouns. It makes it seem as if there is a
> specific person of whom the speaker is aware but that they've forgotten to
> introduce them in the preceding discourse.
>
> I know there is no common gender non-specified third person singular
> pronoun in German, so knowing that Christian is German, I wouldn't have
> thought twice about the error unless he'd drawn attention to it. I would
> think it was just obvious interference from German. That said, it does seem
> bizarrely antagonistic to pre-empt any comments on it out of the blue.
> There are plenty of reasons not to prefer that construction that have
> nothing to do with "political correctness"; it just doesn't fit my native
> speaker intuition.
>
> If we'd like to make the discussion more linguistic, maybe other native
> English speakers can chime in with their judgements on "he" for referents
> of unspecified gender :-) Also, maybe mention your native dialect to see if
> that matters. Mine is working-class NYC metro area English.
>
> Best,
>
> Niko
>
> On Wed, 10 May 2023, 15:59 Christian Lehmann, <
> christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de<mailto:christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>>
> wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> I should, first of all, say that it was not my intention to start a
> discussion on political correctness on this forum. On the one hand, it is
> pretty clear that, among all genuinely linguistic issues, this is the one
> which engages most people emotionally, which means that a rational and
> constructive discussion is very hard to conduct. On the other, one may ask
> why this would be an appropriate topic for LingTyp. So, to repeat, the only
> thing that I requested was that people refrain from criticizing or
> commenting on other people's usage if political correctness is at stake. It
> seems that nobody among those who have taken up the topic is really against
> this request.
>
> This being said, it seems also clear that the issue involves a number of
> problems that are of linguistic interest (although not necessarily of
> typological interest). One is the question brought up by Ma?a: Do we have a
> right to determine our name? And further: Do we have a right to determine
> how our people (our ethnos), town and our country are called? (Remember
> that political correctness has often required speakers to stick to the most
> recent redenomination realized by locals.)
>
> Another is the question of politeness brought up by J?rgen: If I use an
> expression that some people find politically incorrect, at the same time
> sincerely and credibly assuring interlocutors that I mean no harm (and if
> required, distancing myself explicitly from pejorative or otherwise
> negative connotations that some people associate with it), is it then me
> who is impolite or is it those people who insist that I speak otherwise?
>
> Again, these are issues of pragmatics rather than typology. But we
> typologists are not really that narrow-minded; so if people want to take it
> up, go ahead.
>
> Best,
> Christian
> --
>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> Rudolfstr. 4
> 99092 Erfurt
> Deutschland
>
> Tel.: +49/361/2113417
> E-Post: christianw_lehmann at arcor.de<mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
> Web: https://www.christianlehmann.eu<
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.christianlehmann.eu__;!!K-Hz7m0Vt54!liKJ8VyvExCDj8jMWbwjCs97aRYzKSSeUU85dlEUv3-4xzHeyj9QpfmkcIiBP-JHGW1ZvKgVlXHKzsrjFSnzpQ$
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> >
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