[Lingtyp] retrolative
Paolo Ramat
paoram at unipv.it
Thu Aug 8 17:15:34 UTC 2024
Dear Christian, dear All,
can Ital. riportare be considered a 'retrolativ'? The 'cane da riporto'
is the dog who brings [N.B. not brings back !】 the pray ( = point B, or
reference point) to his master (i.e. the hunter= point A) from where the
dog starts when the hunter's shot has been successful.The prefix ri- (
like Span. re- in revolver etc. ) , when applied to movement verbs
indicates back moviment. With verbs meaning 'to fetch' to the back
movement the idea of bringing ( Lat. latere!) an object is added ‐- as in
the dog example.
Best , Paolo
Il Gio 8 Ago 2024, 13:36 David Gil via Lingtyp <
lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> ha scritto:
> Dear all,
>
>
> In Georgian, verbal prefixes *mi-* 'motion away from speaker' and *mo*-
> 'motion towards speaker' may co-occur in the context of reduplication,
> which expresses distributivity, resulting in what might be characterized as
> a distributive retrolative. Here are a couple of examples from Gil
> (1982:224) based on the verb stem *mic'-* 'move':
>
>
>
> (1)
>
> Man vašlebi mic'i-moc'ia
>
> 3SG:ERG apple:PL:ABS RETRO:DISTR1~move:3SG
>
> 'He moved the apples to and fro repeatedly'
>
>
>
> (2)
>
> Man vašlebi mic'-moc'ia
>
> 3SG:ERG apple:PL:ABS RETRO:DISTR2~move:3SG
>
> 'He moved each of the apples to and fro separately'
>
>
>
> In the above examples, two different reduplicative strategies (here
> glossed as DISTR1 and DISTR2) result in two different domains of the
> distributive relation — which is not directly relevant to the present
> thread. What is relevant here is the fact that an apparent retrolative
> (glossed as RETRO) is formed, quite compositionally, by the combination of
> 'hither' and 'thither' prefixes.
>
>
>
> Gil, David (1982) *Distributive Numerals*, PhD Dissertation, UCLA.
>
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:59 PM Guillaume Jacques via Lingtyp <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
>> Dear Christian and colleagues,
>>
>> As pointed out by Sasha, the retroactive meaning is indeed expressed by
>> associated motion in many languages. In Japhug, it is expressed by a
>> construction involving the verb /ru~re/, which *requires* associated
>> motion markers. It is the only such verb in Japhug (see Jacques
>> 2021:701-705 A grammar of Japhug | Language Science Press
>> (langsci-press.org) <https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295>).
>>
>> Motion verbs in Japhug encode orientation along three axes (vertical,
>> solar and fluvial), and interestingly with this verb the orientation refers
>> to the way back, not the way towards the place where the taking action is
>> realized (see Jacques 2021:702):
>>
>> (223) sɤcɯ z-ɲɯ-re-a
>> key go&do-ipfv:west-bring/fetch[III]-1sg
>> "I will fetch the key." (first go towards east, take the key, the come
>> back towards the west)/
>>
>> Guillaume
>>
>>
>> Le jeu. 8 août 2024 à 12:47, Sasha Wilmoth via Lingtyp <
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> a écrit :
>>
>>> Dear Christian, all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This can also be found in some systems of associated motion, e.g.
>>> Kaytetye:
>>>
>>> Erlkwe aynewantheyenge ane mamey-eynenge
>>> aynewantheyenge enwe-*nyeyaytne*-nke
>>> old.man 1pl.incl.poss(nom) and mother-coll
>>> 1pl.incl.poss(nom) lie-*GO&DO&RET-*prs
>>>
>>> ‘The old men and our mothers used to go and camp out and return’
>>>
>>> (Turpin & Ross 2012 cited in Koch 2021, p. 246)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See:
>>>
>>> Guillaume, A., & Koch, H. (Eds.). (2021). *Associated Motion*. De
>>> Gruyter. https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110692099
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The introduction lists some terms: bidirectional, roundtrip,
>>> counterdirectional, returnative, go&do&return
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Sasha
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Sasha Wilmoth
>>>
>>> Lecturer in Linguistics
>>>
>>> School of Languages and Linguistics
>>>
>>> University of Melbourne
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf
>>> of Alex Francois via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>> *Date: *Thursday, 8 August 2024 at 8:31 PM
>>> *To: *Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
>>> *Cc: *LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG <
>>> LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] retrolative
>>>
>>> dear Christian,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As a point of reference, it may be interesting to note that the semantic
>>> feature of retrolative would be expressed analytically in languages with
>>> (certain types of) verb serialization.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For example, consider the Papuan language Kalam, as described in Pawley
>>> (2009)
>>> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Pawley/publication/300841393_On_the_origins_of_serial_verb_constructions_in_Kalam/links/58d0fd8b4585158476f36662/On-the-origins-of-serial-verb-constructions-in-Kalam.pdf>
>>> :
>>>
>>> - Pawley, Andrew. 2009. On the origins of serial verb constructions
>>> in Kalam. In Talmy Givón & Masayoshi Shibatani (eds.), *Syntactic
>>> complexity: Diachrony, acquisition, neuro-cognition, evolution*
>>> (Typological Studies in Language v. 85), 119–144. Amsterdam ;
>>> Philadelphia: Benjamins.
>>>
>>> Pawley cites various examples of this type
>>> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Pawley/publication/300841393_On_the_origins_of_serial_verb_constructions_in_Kalam/links/58d0fd8b4585158476f36662/On-the-origins-of-serial-verb-constructions-in-Kalam.pdf#page=4>
>>> :
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (1) *am *mab pu-wk d *ap* agl kn-la-k.
>>>
>>> *go *wood hit-break.up get *come *ignite sleep-3PL-PAST
>>>
>>> “They gathered firewood for the night.”
>>> [lit. ‘They went and gathered firewood and brought it, made a fire
>>> and slept.']
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The retrolative semantic component is here encoded analytically, using
>>> distinct (serialized) verbs “go... get... *come*...”.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pawley calls such event-types “collecting expeditions”, and shows that
>>> the serial pattern is grammaticalized, i.e. linguistically entrenched in
>>> the phraseological / formulaic routines of Kalam. On p.135
>>> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Pawley/publication/300841393_On_the_origins_of_serial_verb_constructions_in_Kalam/links/58d0fd8b4585158476f36662/On-the-origins-of-serial-verb-constructions-in-Kalam.pdf#page=18>
>>> he provides the recipe for the pattern:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Similar analytic strategies for the retrolative meaning can be found in
>>> other serializing languages, at least in those where the sequence of
>>> clauses iconically reflects a sequence of (sub)events.
>>>
>>> [NB: In another type of serializing languages, all verbs must reflect
>>> simultaneous facets of a single event; they would not work in the same way.]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Think also of constructions in -て来る *-te kuru *[-Converb come] in
>>> colloquial Japanese:
>>>
>>> e.g.
>>>
>>> (2) 買い物に行って*来*るよ。
>>>
>>> *Kaimono=ni it-te ku-ru yo.*
>>>
>>> shopping=OBL go-CVB *come*-Npst PTC
>>>
>>> “I'm going grocery-shopping.” [lit. I'll go shopping *and come*
>>> .]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> best
>>>
>>> Alex
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Alex François
>>>
>>> LaTTiCe <http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/> — CNRS–
>>> <http://www.cnrs.fr/index.html>ENS
>>> <https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094>
>>> –PSL <https://www.psl.eu/en>–Sorbonne nouvelle
>>> <http://www.univ-paris3.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp>
>>> Australian National University
>>> <https://researchprofiles.anu.edu.au/en/persons/alex-francois>
>>>
>>> Personal homepage <http://alex.francois.online.fr/>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> From: *Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp* <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> >
>>> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2024 at 10:19
>>> Subject: [Lingtyp] retrolative
>>> To: <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>
>>> I was told occasionally that there is a local relation - let's call it
>>> retrolative - consisting of a movement to reference point R and back to the
>>> point of departure. In the languages that have it in their grammar, it
>>> would be in a paradigm with ablative, allative, perlative. Unless I am
>>> mistaken, English only has it embodied in the meaning of * fetch*, and
>>> likewise in German *holen*.
>>>
>>> 1. Is retrolative the right term, or is the relation known under a
>>> different term?
>>> 2. Please give me a representative example of the type 'Jane went to
>>> R round-trip' or 'Jane fetched the axe from the shed' using a retrolative
>>> case or adposition or a retrolative formative in some other structural
>>> category.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>> Christian
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
>>> Rudolfstr. 4
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Rudolfstr.+4+%0D%0A99092+Erfurt+%0D%0A+Deutschland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>> 99092 Erfurt
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Rudolfstr.+4+%0D%0A99092+Erfurt+%0D%0A+Deutschland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>> Deutschland
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Rudolfstr.+4+%0D%0A99092+Erfurt+%0D%0A+Deutschland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>
>>> Tel.:
>>>
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Rudolfstr.+4+%0D%0A99092+Erfurt+%0D%0A+Deutschland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>
>>> +49/361/2113417
>>>
>>> E-Post:
>>>
>>> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
>>>
>>> Web:
>>>
>>> https://www.christianlehmann.eu
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Guillaume Jacques
>>
>> Directeur de recherches
>> CNRS (CRLAO) - EPHE- INALCO
>> https://scholar.google.fr/citations?user=1XCp2-oAAAAJ&hl=fr
>> https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295
>> <http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques>
>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
> --
>
> David Gil
>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary AnthropologyDeutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Deutscher+Platz+6,+Leipzig,+04103,+Germany?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> Email: dapiiiiit at gmail.com
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
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>
>
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