[Lingtyp] retrolative
David Gil
dapiiiiit at gmail.com
Thu Aug 8 11:34:31 UTC 2024
Dear all,
In Georgian, verbal prefixes *mi-* 'motion away from speaker' and *mo*-
'motion towards speaker' may co-occur in the context of reduplication,
which expresses distributivity, resulting in what might be characterized as
a distributive retrolative. Here are a couple of examples from Gil
(1982:224) based on the verb stem *mic'-* 'move':
(1)
Man vašlebi mic'i-moc'ia
3SG:ERG apple:PL:ABS RETRO:DISTR1~move:3SG
'He moved the apples to and fro repeatedly'
(2)
Man vašlebi mic'-moc'ia
3SG:ERG apple:PL:ABS RETRO:DISTR2~move:3SG
'He moved each of the apples to and fro separately'
In the above examples, two different reduplicative strategies (here glossed
as DISTR1 and DISTR2) result in two different domains of the distributive
relation — which is not directly relevant to the present thread. What is
relevant here is the fact that an apparent retrolative (glossed as RETRO)
is formed, quite compositionally, by the combination of 'hither' and
'thither' prefixes.
Gil, David (1982) *Distributive Numerals*, PhD Dissertation, UCLA.
On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:59 PM Guillaume Jacques via Lingtyp <
lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
> Dear Christian and colleagues,
>
> As pointed out by Sasha, the retroactive meaning is indeed expressed by
> associated motion in many languages. In Japhug, it is expressed by a
> construction involving the verb /ru~re/, which *requires* associated
> motion markers. It is the only such verb in Japhug (see Jacques
> 2021:701-705 A grammar of Japhug | Language Science Press
> (langsci-press.org) <https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295>).
>
> Motion verbs in Japhug encode orientation along three axes (vertical,
> solar and fluvial), and interestingly with this verb the orientation refers
> to the way back, not the way towards the place where the taking action is
> realized (see Jacques 2021:702):
>
> (223) sɤcɯ z-ɲɯ-re-a
> key go&do-ipfv:west-bring/fetch[III]-1sg
> "I will fetch the key." (first go towards east, take the key, the come
> back towards the west)/
>
> Guillaume
>
>
> Le jeu. 8 août 2024 à 12:47, Sasha Wilmoth via Lingtyp <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> a écrit :
>
>> Dear Christian, all,
>>
>>
>>
>> This can also be found in some systems of associated motion, e.g.
>> Kaytetye:
>>
>> Erlkwe aynewantheyenge ane mamey-eynenge
>> aynewantheyenge enwe-*nyeyaytne*-nke
>> old.man 1pl.incl.poss(nom) and mother-coll
>> 1pl.incl.poss(nom) lie-*GO&DO&RET-*prs
>>
>> ‘The old men and our mothers used to go and camp out and return’
>>
>> (Turpin & Ross 2012 cited in Koch 2021, p. 246)
>>
>>
>>
>> See:
>>
>> Guillaume, A., & Koch, H. (Eds.). (2021). *Associated Motion*. De
>> Gruyter. https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110692099
>>
>>
>>
>> The introduction lists some terms: bidirectional, roundtrip,
>> counterdirectional, returnative, go&do&return
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Sasha
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Sasha Wilmoth
>>
>> Lecturer in Linguistics
>>
>> School of Languages and Linguistics
>>
>> University of Melbourne
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
>> Alex Francois via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Date: *Thursday, 8 August 2024 at 8:31 PM
>> *To: *Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
>> *Cc: *LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG <
>> LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] retrolative
>>
>> dear Christian,
>>
>>
>>
>> As a point of reference, it may be interesting to note that the semantic
>> feature of retrolative would be expressed analytically in languages with
>> (certain types of) verb serialization.
>>
>>
>>
>> For example, consider the Papuan language Kalam, as described in Pawley
>> (2009)
>> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Pawley/publication/300841393_On_the_origins_of_serial_verb_constructions_in_Kalam/links/58d0fd8b4585158476f36662/On-the-origins-of-serial-verb-constructions-in-Kalam.pdf>
>> :
>>
>> - Pawley, Andrew. 2009. On the origins of serial verb constructions
>> in Kalam. In Talmy Givón & Masayoshi Shibatani (eds.), *Syntactic
>> complexity: Diachrony, acquisition, neuro-cognition, evolution*
>> (Typological Studies in Language v. 85), 119–144. Amsterdam ;
>> Philadelphia: Benjamins.
>>
>> Pawley cites various examples of this type
>> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Pawley/publication/300841393_On_the_origins_of_serial_verb_constructions_in_Kalam/links/58d0fd8b4585158476f36662/On-the-origins-of-serial-verb-constructions-in-Kalam.pdf#page=4>
>> :
>>
>>
>>
>> (1) *am *mab pu-wk d *ap* agl kn-la-k.
>>
>> *go *wood hit-break.up get *come *ignite sleep-3PL-PAST
>>
>> “They gathered firewood for the night.”
>> [lit. ‘They went and gathered firewood and brought it, made a fire
>> and slept.']
>>
>>
>>
>> The retrolative semantic component is here encoded analytically, using
>> distinct (serialized) verbs “go... get... *come*...”.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pawley calls such event-types “collecting expeditions”, and shows that
>> the serial pattern is grammaticalized, i.e. linguistically entrenched in
>> the phraseological / formulaic routines of Kalam. On p.135
>> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Pawley/publication/300841393_On_the_origins_of_serial_verb_constructions_in_Kalam/links/58d0fd8b4585158476f36662/On-the-origins-of-serial-verb-constructions-in-Kalam.pdf#page=18>
>> he provides the recipe for the pattern:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Similar analytic strategies for the retrolative meaning can be found in
>> other serializing languages, at least in those where the sequence of
>> clauses iconically reflects a sequence of (sub)events.
>>
>> [NB: In another type of serializing languages, all verbs must reflect
>> simultaneous facets of a single event; they would not work in the same way.]
>>
>>
>>
>> Think also of constructions in -て来る *-te kuru *[-Converb come] in
>> colloquial Japanese:
>>
>> e.g.
>>
>> (2) 買い物に行って*来*るよ。
>>
>> *Kaimono=ni it-te ku-ru yo.*
>>
>> shopping=OBL go-CVB *come*-Npst PTC
>>
>> “I'm going grocery-shopping.” [lit. I'll go shopping *and come*
>> .]
>>
>>
>>
>> best
>>
>> Alex
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Alex François
>>
>> LaTTiCe <http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/> — CNRS–
>> <http://www.cnrs.fr/index.html>ENS
>> <https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094>
>> –PSL <https://www.psl.eu/en>–Sorbonne nouvelle
>> <http://www.univ-paris3.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp>
>> Australian National University
>> <https://researchprofiles.anu.edu.au/en/persons/alex-francois>
>>
>> Personal homepage <http://alex.francois.online.fr/>
>>
>> _________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: *Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp* <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2024 at 10:19
>> Subject: [Lingtyp] retrolative
>> To: <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> I was told occasionally that there is a local relation - let's call it
>> retrolative - consisting of a movement to reference point R and back to the
>> point of departure. In the languages that have it in their grammar, it
>> would be in a paradigm with ablative, allative, perlative. Unless I am
>> mistaken, English only has it embodied in the meaning of * fetch*, and
>> likewise in German *holen*.
>>
>> 1. Is retrolative the right term, or is the relation known under a
>> different term?
>> 2. Please give me a representative example of the type 'Jane went to
>> R round-trip' or 'Jane fetched the axe from the shed' using a retrolative
>> case or adposition or a retrolative formative in some other structural
>> category.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Christian
>>
>> --
>>
>> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
>> Rudolfstr. 4
>> 99092 Erfurt
>> Deutschland
>>
>> Tel.:
>>
>> +49/361/2113417
>>
>> E-Post:
>>
>> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
>>
>> Web:
>>
>> https://www.christianlehmann.eu
>>
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>
>
> --
> Guillaume Jacques
>
> Directeur de recherches
> CNRS (CRLAO) - EPHE- INALCO
> https://scholar.google.fr/citations?user=1XCp2-oAAAAJ&hl=fr
> https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295
> <http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques>
> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
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>
--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: dapiiiiit at gmail.com
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302
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