[Lingtyp] retrolative

Thu Aug 8 10:59:12 UTC 2024

Dear Christian and colleagues,

As pointed out by Sasha, the retroactive meaning is indeed expressed by
associated motion in many languages. In Japhug, it is expressed by a
construction involving the verb /ru~re/, which *requires* associated motion
markers. It is the only such verb in Japhug (see Jacques 2021:701-705 A
grammar of Japhug | Language Science Press (langsci-press.org)
<https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295>).

Motion verbs in Japhug encode orientation along three axes (vertical, solar
and fluvial), and interestingly with this verb the orientation refers to
the way back, not the way towards the place where the taking action is
realized (see Jacques 2021:702):

(223) sɤcɯ z-ɲɯ-re-a
key go&do-ipfv:west-bring/fetch[III]-1sg
"I will fetch the key." (first go towards east, take the key, the come back
towards the west)/

Guillaume

Le jeu. 8 août 2024 à 12:47, Sasha Wilmoth via Lingtyp <
lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> a écrit :

> Dear Christian, all,
>
>
>
> This can also be found in some systems of associated motion, e.g. Kaytetye:
>
> Erlkwe           aynewantheyenge      ane     mamey-eynenge
> aynewantheyenge      enwe-*nyeyaytne*-nke
> old.man        1pl.incl.poss(nom)    and     mother-coll
> 1pl.incl.poss(nom)    lie-*GO&DO&RET-*prs
>
> ‘The old men and our mothers used to go and camp out and return’
>
> (Turpin & Ross 2012 cited in Koch 2021, p. 246)
>
>
>
> See:
>
> Guillaume, A., & Koch, H. (Eds.). (2021). *Associated Motion*. De
> Gruyter. https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110692099
>
>
>
> The introduction lists some terms: bidirectional, roundtrip,
> counterdirectional, returnative, go&do&return
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Dr Sasha Wilmoth
>
> Lecturer in Linguistics
>
> School of Languages and Linguistics
>
> University of Melbourne
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> Alex Francois via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Date: *Thursday, 8 August 2024 at 8:31 PM
> *To: *Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> *Cc: *LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
> >
> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] retrolative
>
> dear Christian,
>
>
>
> As a point of reference, it may be interesting to note that the semantic
> feature of retrolative would be expressed analytically in languages with
> (certain types of) verb serialization.
>
>
>
> For example, consider the Papuan language Kalam, as described in Pawley
> (2009)
> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Pawley/publication/300841393_On_the_origins_of_serial_verb_constructions_in_Kalam/links/58d0fd8b4585158476f36662/On-the-origins-of-serial-verb-constructions-in-Kalam.pdf>
> :
>
>    - Pawley, Andrew. 2009. On the origins of serial verb constructions in
>    Kalam. In Talmy Givón & Masayoshi Shibatani (eds.), *Syntactic
>    complexity: Diachrony, acquisition, neuro-cognition, evolution*
>    (Typological Studies in Language v. 85), 119–144. Amsterdam ;
>    Philadelphia: Benjamins.
>
> Pawley cites various examples of this type
> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Pawley/publication/300841393_On_the_origins_of_serial_verb_constructions_in_Kalam/links/58d0fd8b4585158476f36662/On-the-origins-of-serial-verb-constructions-in-Kalam.pdf#page=4>
> :
>
>
>
> (1) *am *mab pu-wk      d   *ap*    agl   kn-la-k.
>
>        *go    *wood  hit-break.up get  *come  *ignite  sleep-3PL-PAST
>
>      “They gathered firewood for the night.”
>     [lit. ‘They went and gathered firewood and brought it, made a fire and
> slept.']
>
>
>
> The retrolative semantic component is here encoded analytically, using
> distinct (serialized) verbs “go...  get... *come*...”.
>
>
>
> Pawley calls such event-types “collecting expeditions”, and shows that the
> serial pattern is grammaticalized, i.e. linguistically entrenched in the
> phraseological / formulaic routines of Kalam. On p.135
> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Pawley/publication/300841393_On_the_origins_of_serial_verb_constructions_in_Kalam/links/58d0fd8b4585158476f36662/On-the-origins-of-serial-verb-constructions-in-Kalam.pdf#page=18>
> he provides the recipe for the pattern:
>
>
>
>
>
> Similar analytic strategies for the retrolative meaning can be found in
> other serializing languages, at least in those where the sequence of
> clauses iconically reflects a sequence of (sub)events.
>
> [NB:  In another type of serializing languages, all verbs must reflect
> simultaneous facets of a single event; they would not work in the same way.]
>
>
>
> Think also of constructions in -て来る *-te kuru  *[-Converb  come]  in
> colloquial Japanese:
>
> e.g.
>
> (2)  買い物に行って*来*るよ。
>
>       *Kaimono=ni   it-te    ku-ru      yo.*
>
>         shopping=OBL    go-CVB   *come*-Npst  PTC
>
>       “I'm going grocery-shopping.”    [lit. I'll go shopping *and come*.]
>
>
>
> best
>
> Alex
> ------------------------------
>
> Alex François
>
> LaTTiCe <http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/> — CNRS–
> <http://www.cnrs.fr/index.html>ENS
> <https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094>
> –PSL <https://www.psl.eu/en>–Sorbonne nouvelle
> <http://www.univ-paris3.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp>
> Australian National University
> <https://researchprofiles.anu.edu.au/en/persons/alex-francois>
>
> Personal homepage <http://alex.francois.online.fr/>
>
> _________________________________________
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: *Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp* <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2024 at 10:19
> Subject: [Lingtyp] retrolative
> To: <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
>
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> I was told occasionally that there is a local relation - let's call it
> retrolative - consisting of a movement to reference point R and back to the
> point of departure. In the languages that have it in their grammar, it
> would be in a paradigm with ablative, allative, perlative. Unless I am
> mistaken, English only has it embodied in the meaning of * fetch*, and
> likewise in German *holen*.
>
>    1. Is retrolative the right term, or is the relation known under a
>    different term?
>    2. Please give me a representative example of the type 'Jane went to R
>    round-trip' or 'Jane fetched the axe from the shed' using a retrolative
>    case or adposition or a retrolative formative in some other structural
>    category.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Christian
>
> --
>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> Rudolfstr. 4
> 99092 Erfurt
> Deutschland
>
> Tel.:
>
> +49/361/2113417
>
> E-Post:
>
> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
>
> Web:
>
> https://www.christianlehmann.eu
>
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-- 
Guillaume Jacques

Directeur de recherches
CNRS (CRLAO) - EPHE- INALCO
https://scholar.google.fr/citations?user=1XCp2-oAAAAJ&hl=fr
https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295
<http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques>
http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
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