[Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation

Fri Aug 16 17:37:34 UTC 2024

I  agree with St. Robert and H . Tommola: the  negat. Prefix  Rom. In- ,
Germ. un-    have nothing to do with the explet. NEG.  Rather, they
represent the ( subjective) statement of the  speaker who consider it
impossiɓle to enough positively evaluate  ( schaetzen)  the quality of the
subject matter.

On explet. NEG  see RAMAT in "Linguistic Typology at the Crossroads" (
Univ. of Bologna  ) 2-2.  2022: 1-38.

Il Ven 16 Ago 2024, 16:42 Larry M Hyman via Lingtyp <
lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> ha scritto:

> I wonder if there is any difference, however, between "flammable" and
> "inflammable", both defined as "easily set on fire". Maybe that's a
> different in-?
>
> I'm not sure about the relation between the verbs "thaw" and "unthaw"? For
> me they are synonymous when used transitively ('we have to (un)thaw this
> meat for dinner"), although I would often say "thaw out', especially
> intransitively ('the meat has finally thawed (out)'; ?unthawed... hm, maybe
> it OK). In looking up the words there seem to be some potential
> differences. I'm not familiar with "unthawing a frozen tank valve" :-)!
>
> thaw verb (BECOME NOT FROZEN)to (cause to) change from a solid, frozen
> state to a liquid or soft one, because of an increase in temperature:
> Allow the meat to thaw completely before cooking it. The sun came out and
> thawed the ice.
>
> "Unthaw" is a verb that means to cause something to become soft or liquid,
> or to become soft or liquid itself. For example, you can unthaw a frozen
> tank valve or a frozen sewage line. Some synonyms of "unthaw" include: Dthaw
> [?], Dissolve, Melt, Thaw, and Unfreeze
>
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 5:18 AM ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
>> I fully agree with Bastian which perhaps expresses more clearly what I
>> meant by “high degree”: subjective evaluation pointing to an extreme degree
>> (indescribable, inexpressible), positive or negative depending on the
>> notion involved.
>> To take on this meaning, lexical negation must be combined with a
>> gradable (or scalar) notion. In the case of nouns, this typically involves
>> mass nouns, such as Menge (crowd), Tiefe (depth) vs. Freiheit (freedom).
>>
>>
>> Stéphane
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de
>> Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Envoyé :* vendredi 16 août 2024 14:15
>> *À :* Bastian Persohn
>> *Cc :* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> *Objet :* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>>
>>
>> Well, the point is that these words contain what synchronically looks
>> like a negator affix even though that affix does not negate the stem. So,
>> they seem to qualify for the phenomenon the original post was about.
>>
>>
>> But I like the idea that the function has shifted as part of
>> a subjectification (?) process. Does that happen with negators
>> cross-linguistically?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Tim
>> ------------------------------
>> *Von:* Bastian Persohn <persohn.linguistics at gmail.com>
>> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 16. August 2024 13:55
>> *An:* Zingler, Tim
>> *Cc:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> *Betreff:* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>>
>> I’m not sure that *Untiefe* is synonymous with *Tiefe*, or *Unmenge* with
>> *Menge*. In my intuition *Un-menge* has an evaluative ring to it (‚an
>> undesirably large or over-the-top amount‘), and DWDS translates it as ’sehr
>> große, übergroße Menge’ [very big, unnecessary big amount]’. Similarly,
>> *Un-tiefe* usually refers to an extreme depth (cf. DWDS: ‚abgrundartige,
>> sehr große Tiefe in einem Gewässer [abysm-like, very large depth in a body
>> of water]‘.
>>
>> Their closest relatives are probably found in instances like *Un-fall* ‚accident‘
>> < *Fall* ‚case‘, i.e. ‚the undesirable case‘ or *Un-tier* ‚monster‘, lit
>> ‚un-animal‘. What all these have in common is a negative element, albeit in
>> the subjective rather than the material domain.
>>
>> Best,
>> Bastian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 16.08.2024 um 13:10 schrieb Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp <
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
>>
>> German has *Un-tiefe*, which essentially means the same as *Tiefe* 'depth'.
>> Or *Un-menge*, largely synonymous with *Menge* 'mass, crowd, great
>> amount.' These seem perfectly analogous to *valuable-invaluable*.
>>
>> I'm sure there's more, but I don't know if that prefix is cognate with
>> the negator found in, for instance, *Un-freiheit* 'unfreedom.' So, there
>> are probably complications involved if one were to analyze that more
>> seriously.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Tim
>> ------------------------------
>> *Von:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> im Auftrag
>> von ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 16. August 2024 11:48
>> *An:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> *Betreff:* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>>
>> Dear Joe,
>>
>> Personally, I do not regard these uses of lexical negation as expletive
>> but rather as contributing a construction with a high-degree value that can
>> be paraphrased as follows: 'this object is (valuable) to a degree that I
>> (speaker) cannot (even) express', or '*no* matter how hard I try to
>> estimate how much X is P, I* can't* express it'(P for predicate).
>>
>> Note that in the examples I can analyse (Germanic, English and also
>> French '*in-estim-able*'), this lexical negation is combined with a
>> suffix (cf. Germ. -*bar*, Eng. < Fr. -*able*) which contributes to the
>> meaning of the construction because it expresses evaluation about capacity
>> ‘which can be P’ .
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Stéphane ROBERT
>>
>> https://llacan.cnrs.fr
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de
>> Hannu Tommola via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Envoyé :* vendredi 16 août 2024 11:03
>> *À :* <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>; Pun Ho Lui
>> *Objet :* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> there seems to be a tendency to lexicalize 'invaluable' in an
>> intensifying non-negative meaning (cf. Russian *bes-cennyj* 'invaluable,
>> priceless', which has an obsolete meaning 'valueless' = *ne-cennyj*).
>> This tendency goes back to the verb 'value' that has, in various languages,
>> both the meanings 1) 'estimate', 2) 'regard/estimate highly'. Cf. also
>> German *un-schätzbar* 'invaluable' < *schätzen* 1. 'to regard highly,
>> respect', 2. 'value, estimate'; the same applies to  Swedish*o-skattbar*
>>  < *(upp)skatta*.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Hannu Tommola
>> ------------------------------
>> *Lähettäjä:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> käyttäjän Pun Ho Lui via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> puolesta
>> *Lähetetty:* perjantai 16. elokuuta 2024 3.22
>> *Vastaanottaja:* <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG> <
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Aihe:* [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>>
>> Dear linguists,
>>
>> I am recently interested in lexical items that consist of a derivational
>> negative affix which may not contribute a negative meaning (i.e. being
>> expletive).
>>
>> For instance, *in-valuable* ~ *valuable*. Other possible examples would
>> be 無價 ‘invaluable [lit. NEG value’ in Mandarin, and *sewashi-nai* ‘restless’
>> ~ *sewashii* ‘busy’ in Japanese.
>>
>> I have looked into a number of (decent) grammar descriptions but have no
>> luck.
>>
>> I am wondering if you know of any language with similar items.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Warmest,
>> Pun Ho Lui Joe
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>
>
> --
> Larry M. Hyman, Distinguished Professor of the Graduate School
> & Director, France-Berkeley Fund, University of California, Berkeley
> https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman
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