[Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation

Sun Aug 18 19:25:20 UTC 2024

There are some further interesting examples of the German un-prefix on 
nouns:

Un-mensch 'inhuman person'

Un-person 'persona non grata'

Un-ding 'something unheard of'

Un-zahl 'huge number' (cf. Un-menge)

I had a look at Grimm's Wörterbuch, where I found some further examples 
that I was unaware of, e.g. Un-haufe 'un-heap', Un-masse 'un-mass'. Some 
of these words seem to be relatively old (16th cent.), others quite 
recent (and Unperson may have been influenced by G. Orwell's English 
coinage? It seems to have emerged in the middle of the 20th century in 
German, according to the DWDS).

There's clearly an emotive component to all of these, and I think they 
all have a negative connotation. Some of the nouns seem to be formed on 
the model of the pattern

'Some x that you cannot V (measure, count)' (cf. Stephane's comment)

"Un-mensch" is perhaps the example that's closest to literal negation, 
'someone who is not a human being'. Unding is mostly used for abstract 
entities, in my German, and more or less means 'scandal'.

I think I would see these examples as instances of subjectification and 
specialization, as others have written or implied. The core meaning of 
'un-' still survives in the negative evaluation (cf. Bastian). Btw I 
think that 'Un-menge' also has a negative evaluation. It's not just a 
large quantity -- it's a quantity that's TOO large, according to some 
standard.

Best,
Volker

Am 16.08.2024 um 14:18 schrieb ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp:
>
> I fully agree with Bastian which perhaps expresses more clearly what I 
> meant by “high degree”: subjective evaluation pointing to an extreme 
> degree (indescribable, inexpressible), positive or negative depending 
> on the notion involved.
> To take on this meaning, lexical negation must be combined with a 
> gradable (or scalar) notion. In the case of nouns, this typically 
> involves mass nouns, such as Menge (crowd), Tiefe (depth) vs. Freiheit 
> (freedom).
>
>
> Stéphane
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part 
> de Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Envoyé :* vendredi 16 août 2024 14:15
> *À :* Bastian Persohn
> *Cc :* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Objet :* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>
> Well, the point is that these words contain what synchronically looks 
> like a negator affix even though that affix does not negate the stem. 
> So, they seem to qualify for the phenomenon the original post was about.
>
>
> But I like the idea that the function has shifted as part of 
> a subjectification (?) process. Does that happen with negators 
> cross-linguistically?
>
>
> Best,
>
> Tim
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Von:* Bastian Persohn <persohn.linguistics at gmail.com>
> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 16. August 2024 13:55
> *An:* Zingler, Tim
> *Cc:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Betreff:* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
> I’m not sure that /Untiefe/ is synonymous with /Tiefe/, or 
> /Unmenge/ with /Menge/. In my intuition /Un-menge/ has an evaluative 
> ring to it (‚an undesirably large or over-the-top amount‘), and DWDS 
> translates it as ’sehr große, übergroße Menge’ [very big, unnecessary 
> big amount]’. Similarly, /Un-tiefe/ usually refers to an extreme depth 
> (cf. DWDS: ‚abgrundartige, sehr große Tiefe in einem Gewässer 
> [abysm-like, very large depth in a body of water]‘.
>
> Their closest relatives are probably found in instances like 
> /Un-fall/ ‚accident‘ < /Fall/ ‚case‘, i.e. ‚the undesirable case‘ or 
> /Un-tier/ ‚monster‘, lit ‚un-animal‘. What all these have in common is 
> a negative element, albeit in the subjective rather than the material 
> domain.
>
> Best,
> Bastian
>
>
>
>
>> Am 16.08.2024 um 13:10 schrieb Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp 
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
>>
>> German has /Un-tiefe/, which essentially means the same 
>> as/Tiefe/ 'depth'. Or/Un-menge/, largely synonymous 
>> with/Menge/ 'mass, crowd, great amount.' These seem perfectly 
>> analogous to/valuable-invaluable/.
>>
>> I'm sure there's more, but I don't know if that prefix is cognate 
>> with the negator found in, for instance,/Un-freiheit/ 'unfreedom.' 
>> So, there are probably complications involved if one were to analyze 
>> that more seriously.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Tim
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Von:*Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> im Auftrag 
>> von ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Gesendet:*Freitag, 16. August 2024 11:48
>> *An:*lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> *Betreff:*Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>> Dear Joe,
>>
>> Personally, I do not regard these uses of lexical negation as 
>> expletive but rather as contributing a construction with a 
>> high-degree value that can be paraphrased as follows: 'this object is 
>> (valuable) to a degree that I (speaker) cannot (even) express', or 
>> '*no*matter how hard I try to estimate how much X is P, 
>> I*can't*express it'(P for predicate).
>>
>> Note that in the examples I can analyse (Germanic, English and also 
>> French '/in-estim-able/'), this lexical negation is combined with a 
>> suffix (cf. Germ. -/bar/, Eng. < Fr. -/able/) which contributes to 
>> the meaning of the construction because it expresses evaluation about 
>> capacity ‘which can be P’ .
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Stéphane ROBERT
>> https://llacan.cnrs.fr <https://llacan.cnrs.fr/>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *De :*Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part 
>> de Hannu Tommola via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Envoyé :*vendredi 16 août 2024 11:03
>> *À :*<LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>; Pun Ho Lui
>> *Objet :*Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>> Hi,
>>
>> there seems to be a tendency to lexicalize 'invaluable' in an 
>> intensifying non-negative meaning (cf. 
>> Russian/bes-cennyj/ 'invaluable, priceless', which has an obsolete 
>> meaning 'valueless' =/ne-cennyj/). This tendency goes back to the 
>> verb 'value' that has, in various languages, both the meanings 1) 
>> 'estimate', 2) 'regard/estimate highly'. Cf. also 
>> German/un-schätzbar/ 'invaluable' </schätzen/ 1. 'to regard highly, 
>> respect', 2. 'value, estimate'; the same applies to  
>> Swedish/o-skattbar/ </(upp)skatta/.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Hannu Tommola
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Lähettäjä:*Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> 
>> käyttäjän Pun Ho Lui via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> 
>> puolesta
>> *Lähetetty:*perjantai 16. elokuuta 2024 3.22
>> *Vastaanottaja:*<LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG> 
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Aihe:*[Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>> Dear linguists,
>>
>> I am recently interested in lexical items that consist of a 
>> derivational negative affix which may not contribute a negative 
>> meaning (i.e. being expletive).
>>
>> For instance,/in-valuable/~/valuable/. Other possible examples would 
>> be 無價 ‘invaluable [lit. NEG value’ in Mandarin, 
>> and/sewashi-nai/‘restless’ ~/sewashii/‘busy’ in Japanese.
>>
>> I have looked into a number of (decent) grammar descriptions but have 
>> no luck.
>>
>> I am wondering if you know of any language with similar items.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Warmest,
>> Pun Ho Lui Joe
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