[Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation

Sun Aug 18 20:11:47 UTC 2024

I do not know if anybody has remarked on German Untiefe which actually has two opposite meanings:
1. a shallow part of a river or the sea, where the water is not deep, hence a danger for ships that might get stuck
2. an unfathomably deep part of a river (rarely) or the sea
This is what the dictionaries say. For me, Untiefe has mostly the first meaning, although some people might claim it is old-fashioned or even obsolete.
Hartmut Haberland

Fra: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> På vegne af Volker Gast via Lingtyp
Sendt: 18. august 2024 21:25
Til: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
Emne: Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation

There are some further interesting examples of the German un-prefix on nouns:

Un-mensch 'inhuman person'

Un-person 'persona non grata'

Un-ding 'something unheard of'

Un-zahl 'huge number' (cf. Un-menge)

I had a look at Grimm's Wörterbuch, where I found some further examples that I was unaware of, e.g. Un-haufe 'un-heap', Un-masse 'un-mass'. Some of these words seem to be relatively old (16th cent.), others quite recent (and Unperson may have been influenced by G. Orwell's English coinage? It seems to have emerged in the middle of the 20th century in German, according to the DWDS).

There's clearly an emotive component to all of these, and I think they all have a negative connotation. Some of the nouns seem to be formed on the model of the pattern

'Some x that you cannot V (measure, count)' (cf. Stephane's comment)

"Un-mensch" is perhaps the example that's closest to literal negation, 'someone who is not a human being'. Unding is mostly used for abstract entities, in my German, and more or less means 'scandal'.

I think I would see these examples as instances of subjectification and specialization, as others have written or implied. The core meaning of 'un-' still survives in the negative evaluation (cf. Bastian). Btw I think that 'Un-menge' also has a negative evaluation. It's not just a large quantity -- it's a quantity that's TOO large, according to some standard.

Best,
Volker

Am 16.08.2024 um 14:18 schrieb ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp:
I fully agree with Bastian which perhaps expresses more clearly what I meant by “high degree”: subjective evaluation pointing to an extreme degree (indescribable, inexpressible), positive or negative depending on the notion involved.
To take on this meaning, lexical negation must be combined with a gradable (or scalar) notion. In the case of nouns, this typically involves mass nouns, such as Menge (crowd), Tiefe (depth) vs. Freiheit (freedom).

Stéphane

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De : Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Envoyé : vendredi 16 août 2024 14:15
À : Bastian Persohn
Cc : lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Objet : Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation

Well, the point is that these words contain what synchronically looks like a negator affix even though that affix does not negate the stem. So, they seem to qualify for the phenomenon the original post was about.

But I like the idea that the function has shifted as part of a subjectification (?) process. Does that happen with negators cross-linguistically?

Best,

Tim
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Von: Bastian Persohn <persohn.linguistics at gmail.com><mailto:persohn.linguistics at gmail.com>
Gesendet: Freitag, 16. August 2024 13:55
An: Zingler, Tim
Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Betreff: Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation

I’m not sure that Untiefe is synonymous with Tiefe, or Unmenge with Menge. In my intuition Un-menge has an evaluative ring to it (‚an undesirably large or over-the-top amount‘), and DWDS translates it as ’sehr große, übergroße Menge’ [very big, unnecessary big amount]’. Similarly, Un-tiefe usually refers to an extreme depth (cf. DWDS: ‚abgrundartige, sehr große Tiefe in einem Gewässer [abysm-like, very large depth in a body of water]‘.

Their closest relatives are probably found in instances like Un-fall ‚accident‘ < Fall ‚case‘, i.e. ‚the undesirable case‘ or Un-tier ‚monster‘, lit ‚un-animal‘. What all these have in common is a negative element, albeit in the subjective rather than the material domain.

Best,
Bastian

Am 16.08.2024 um 13:10 schrieb Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:

German has Un-tiefe, which essentially means the same as Tiefe 'depth'. Or Un-menge, largely synonymous with Menge 'mass, crowd, great amount.' These seem perfectly analogous to valuable-invaluable.

I'm sure there's more, but I don't know if that prefix is cognate with the negator found in, for instance, Un-freiheit 'unfreedom.' So, there are probably complications involved if one were to analyze that more seriously.

Best,

Tim
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Von: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> im Auftrag von ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Gesendet: Freitag, 16. August 2024 11:48
An: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Betreff: Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation

Dear Joe,

Personally, I do not regard these uses of lexical negation as expletive but rather as contributing a construction with a high-degree value that can be paraphrased as follows: 'this object is (valuable) to a degree that I (speaker) cannot (even) express', or 'no matter how hard I try to estimate how much X is P, I can't express it'(P for predicate).

Note that in the examples I can analyse (Germanic, English and also French 'in-estim-able'), this lexical negation is combined with a suffix (cf. Germ. -bar, Eng. < Fr. -able) which contributes to the meaning of the construction because it expresses evaluation about capacity ‘which can be P’ .

Best
Stéphane ROBERT
https://llacan.cnrs.fr<https://llacan.cnrs.fr/>

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De : Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de Hannu Tommola via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Envoyé : vendredi 16 août 2024 11:03
À : <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG><mailto:LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>; Pun Ho Lui
Objet : Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation

Hi,

there seems to be a tendency to lexicalize 'invaluable' in an intensifying non-negative meaning (cf. Russian bes-cennyj 'invaluable, priceless', which has an obsolete meaning 'valueless' = ne-cennyj). This tendency goes back to the verb 'value' that has, in various languages, both the meanings 1) 'estimate', 2) 'regard/estimate highly'. Cf. also German un-schätzbar 'invaluable' < schätzen 1. 'to regard highly, respect', 2. 'value, estimate'; the same applies to  Swedisho-skattbar < (upp)skatta.

Best wishes,
Hannu Tommola
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Aihe: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation

Dear linguists,

I am recently interested in lexical items that consist of a derivational negative affix which may not contribute a negative meaning (i.e. being expletive).

For instance, in-valuable ~ valuable. Other possible examples would be 無價 ‘invaluable [lit. NEG value’ in Mandarin, and sewashi-nai ‘restless’ ~ sewashii ‘busy’ in Japanese.

I have looked into a number of (decent) grammar descriptions but have no luck.

I am wondering if you know of any language with similar items.

Thank you.

Warmest,
Pun Ho Lui Joe
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