[Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
Pier Marco Bertinetto
piermarco.bertinetto at sns.it
Tue Aug 20 15:54:20 UTC 2024
I'm sure you have already thought of this, i.e. to look into a tool showing
the lexemes' distributional semantic space. This one, for instance:
https://www.pawelmandera.com/snaut-en/
If you compare 'valuable' and 'invaluable', you find (predictably) that the
two words have only partially similar neighbors, and the identical ones
have different distances.
One can play this with any other pair. There are similar tools for other
languages. Just ask your friends computationalists.
Best regards
Pier Marco
Il giorno mar 20 ago 2024 alle ore 08:04 Daniel Ross via Lingtyp <
lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> ha scritto:
> I wonder if these posts might be relevant (just two links here
> representing a lot of related discussion):
> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000500.html ("fail to
> miss", and psycholinguistic opacity of some usage of negation)
> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002164.html
> ("unpacked")
>
> (By the way, I agree with the others who have said there is a meaning
> difference between for example valuable and invaluable, where the latter
> means 'can't be valued' as a more extreme meaning. At least in principle
> and etymology, while a corpus study of usage might show how these terms are
> actually used, if different. Invaluable, at least, is for my native
> California English only learned vocabulary that I would probably only used
> in a relatively prescriptive way. But I'm not sure about others.)
>
> Daniel
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 9:19 AM Jeremy Bradley via Lingtyp <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
>> Analogy to "irrespective" is probably an etymological factor in that one,
>> but I would assume that expletive reading is why the school grammarian
>> argument against it - that it's a double negative and thus shouldn't have a
>> negative reading in the end - doesn't hold in practice and people don't
>> actually have problems parsing the intended meaning there.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jeremy
>> On 19/08/2024 18:07, Peter Arkadiev wrote:
>>
>> What about the (in)famous "irregardless" then?
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> 19.08.2024, 17:04, "Jeremy Bradley via Lingtyp"
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
>>
>> Mari (Uralic) has an interesting pair of adjectives using the fully
>> productive privative derivational suffix *-dəme* '-less' here:
>>
>> *mučas-dəme*
>> end-PRIV
>> 'endless'
>>
>> *ńi-mučas-dəme*
>> NEG-end-PRIV
>> 'endless'
>>
>> ... with *ńi*- being a prefix most likely borrowed from Russian used to
>> create negative indefinites (*molan *'why' > *ńimonal *'for no reason')
>> and otherwise only attaching to pronominal stems.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jeremy
>>
>>
>> On 18/08/2024 22:11, Hartmut Haberland via Lingtyp wrote:
>>
>> I do not know if anybody has remarked on German *Untiefe* which actually
>> has two opposite meanings:
>>
>> 1. a shallow part of a river or the sea, where the water is *not* deep,
>> hence a danger for ships that might get stuck
>>
>> 2. an unfathomably deep part of a river (rarely) or the sea
>>
>> This is what the dictionaries say. For me, *Untiefe* has mostly the
>> first meaning, although some people might claim it is old-fashioned or even
>> obsolete.
>>
>> Hartmut Haberland
>>
>>
>>
>> *Fra:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> *På vegne af *Volker Gast
>> via Lingtyp
>> *Sendt:* 18. august 2024 21:25
>> *Til:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> *Emne:* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>>
>>
>>
>> There are some further interesting examples of the German un-prefix on
>> nouns:
>>
>>
>>
>> Un-mensch 'inhuman person'
>>
>> Un-person 'persona non grata'
>>
>> Un-ding 'something unheard of'
>>
>> Un-zahl 'huge number' (cf. Un-menge)
>>
>>
>>
>> I had a look at Grimm's Wörterbuch, where I found some further examples
>> that I was unaware of, e.g. Un-haufe 'un-heap', Un-masse 'un-mass'. Some of
>> these words seem to be relatively old (16th cent.), others quite recent
>> (and Unperson may have been influenced by G. Orwell's English coinage? It
>> seems to have emerged in the middle of the 20th century in German,
>> according to the DWDS).
>>
>>
>>
>> There's clearly an emotive component to all of these, and I think they
>> all have a negative connotation. Some of the nouns seem to be formed on the
>> model of the pattern
>>
>>
>>
>> 'Some x that you cannot V (measure, count)' (cf. Stephane's comment)
>>
>>
>>
>> "Un-mensch" is perhaps the example that's closest to literal negation,
>> 'someone who is not a human being'. Unding is mostly used for abstract
>> entities, in my German, and more or less means 'scandal'.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think I would see these examples as instances of subjectification and
>> specialization, as others have written or implied. The core meaning of
>> 'un-' still survives in the negative evaluation (cf. Bastian). Btw I think
>> that 'Un-menge' also has a negative evaluation. It's not just a large
>> quantity -- it's a quantity that's TOO large, according to some standard.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 16.08.2024 um 14:18 schrieb ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp:
>>
>> I fully agree with Bastian which perhaps expresses more clearly what I
>> meant by “high degree”: subjective evaluation pointing to an extreme degree
>> (indescribable, inexpressible), positive or negative depending on the
>> notion involved.
>>
>> To take on this meaning, lexical negation must be combined with a
>> gradable (or scalar) notion. In the case of nouns, this typically involves
>> mass nouns, such as Menge (crowd), Tiefe (depth) vs. Freiheit (freedom).
>>
>>
>>
>> Stéphane
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de Zingler, Tim
>> via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Envoyé :* vendredi 16 août 2024 14:15
>> *À :* Bastian Persohn
>> *Cc :* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> *Objet :* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, the point is that these words contain what synchronically looks
>> like a negator affix even though that affix does not negate the stem. So,
>> they seem to qualify for the phenomenon the original post was about.
>>
>>
>>
>> But I like the idea that the function has shifted as part of
>> a subjectification (?) process. Does that happen with negators
>> cross-linguistically?
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>>
>> Tim
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *Von:* Bastian Persohn <persohn.linguistics at gmail.com>
>> <persohn.linguistics at gmail.com>
>> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 16. August 2024 13:55
>> *An:* Zingler, Tim
>> *Cc:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> *Betreff:* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m not sure that *Untiefe* is synonymous with *Tiefe*, or *Unmenge* with
>> *Menge*. In my intuition *Un-menge* has an evaluative ring to it (‚an
>> undesirably large or over-the-top amount‘), and DWDS translates it as ’sehr
>> große, übergroße Menge’ [very big, unnecessary big amount]’. Similarly,
>> *Un-tiefe* usually refers to an extreme depth (cf. DWDS: ‚abgrundartige,
>> sehr große Tiefe in einem Gewässer [abysm-like, very large depth in a body
>> of water]‘.
>>
>>
>>
>> Their closest relatives are probably found in instances like *Un-fall* ‚accident‘
>> < *Fall* ‚case‘, i.e. ‚the undesirable case‘ or *Un-tier* ‚monster‘, lit
>> ‚un-animal‘. What all these have in common is a negative element, albeit in
>> the subjective rather than the material domain.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Bastian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 16.08.2024 um 13:10 schrieb Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
>>
>>
>>
>> German has *Un-tiefe*, which essentially means the same as *Tiefe* 'depth'.
>> Or *Un-menge*, largely synonymous with *Menge* 'mass, crowd, great
>> amount.' These seem perfectly analogous to *valuable-invaluable*.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm sure there's more, but I don't know if that prefix is cognate with
>> the negator found in, for instance, *Un-freiheit* 'unfreedom.' So, there
>> are probably complications involved if one were to analyze that more
>> seriously.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>>
>> Tim
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *Von:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> im Auftrag von ROBERT
>> Stephane via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 16. August 2024 11:48
>> *An:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> *Betreff:* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Joe,
>>
>>
>>
>> Personally, I do not regard these uses of lexical negation as expletive
>> but rather as contributing a construction with a high-degree value that can
>> be paraphrased as follows: 'this object is (valuable) to a degree that I
>> (speaker) cannot (even) express', or '*no* matter how hard I try to
>> estimate how much X is P, I *can't* express it'(P for predicate).
>>
>>
>> Note that in the examples I can analyse (Germanic, English and also
>> French '*in-estim-able*'), this lexical negation is combined with a
>> suffix (cf. Germ. -*bar*, Eng. < Fr. -*able*) which contributes to the
>> meaning of the construction because it expresses evaluation about capacity
>> ‘which can be P’ .
>>
>>
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Stéphane ROBERT
>>
>> https://llacan.cnrs.fr
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de Hannu Tommola
>> via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Envoyé :* vendredi 16 août 2024 11:03
>> *À :* <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
>> <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>; Pun Ho Lui
>> *Objet :* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> there seems to be a tendency to lexicalize 'invaluable' in an
>> intensifying non-negative meaning (cf. Russian *bes-cennyj* 'invaluable,
>> priceless', which has an obsolete meaning 'valueless' = *ne-cennyj*).
>> This tendency goes back to the verb 'value' that has, in various languages,
>> both the meanings 1) 'estimate', 2) 'regard/estimate highly'. Cf. also
>> German *un-schätzbar* 'invaluable' < *schätzen* 1. 'to regard highly,
>> respect', 2. 'value, estimate'; the same applies to Swedish*o-skattbar*
>> < *(upp)skatta*.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Hannu Tommola
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *Lähettäjä:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> käyttäjän Pun Ho Lui via
>> Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> puolesta
>> *Lähetetty:* perjantai 16. elokuuta 2024 3.22
>> *Vastaanottaja:* <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
>> <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Aihe:* [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear linguists,
>>
>>
>>
>> I am recently interested in lexical items that consist of a derivational
>> negative affix which may not contribute a negative meaning (i.e. being
>> expletive).
>>
>>
>>
>> For instance, *in-valuable* ~ *valuable*. Other possible examples would
>> be 無價 ‘invaluable [lit. NEG value’ in Mandarin, and *sewashi-nai* ‘restless’
>> ~ *sewashii* ‘busy’ in Japanese.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have looked into a number of (decent) grammar descriptions but have no
>> luck.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am wondering if you know of any language with similar items.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>> Warmest,
>>
>> Pun Ho Lui Joe
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> --
>> Jeremy Bradley, Ph.D.
>> University of Vienna
>> http://www.mari-language.comjeremy.moss.bradley@univie.ac.at
>>
>> Office address:
>> Institut EVSL
>> Abteilung Finno-Ugristik
>> Universität Wien
>> Campus AAKH, Hof 7-2
>> Spitalgasse 2-4
>> 1090 Wien
>> AUSTRIA
>>
>> Mobile: +43-664-99-31-788
>> Skype: jeremy.moss.bradley
>>
>> ,
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Peter Arkadiev, PhD Habil.
>> https://peterarkadiev.github.io/
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeremy Bradley, Ph.D.
>> University of Vienna
>> http://www.mari-language.comjeremy.moss.bradley@univie.ac.at
>>
>> Office address:
>> Institut EVSL
>> Abteilung Finno-Ugristik
>> Universität Wien
>> Campus AAKH, Hof 7-2
>> Spitalgasse 2-4
>> 1090 Wien
>> AUSTRIA
>>
>> Mobile: +43-664-99-31-788
>> Skype: jeremy.moss.bradley
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
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--
=========================================================
|||| Pier Marco Bertinetto
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